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How was DAoC pvp more &quot

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  • Whatever happened to Warhammer online?

Thread: Whatever happened to Warhammer online?

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  1. 2013-03-24, 09:10 PM


    #21

    Adam Jensen

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    The Unstoppable Force

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    Well, they fucked my realm by allowing dozens of Order guilds to transfer, making a very skewed ratio O:C. Which meant we never won any RVR, never even had a chance. Bring ALL the chaos to the battlefield and we still got swarmed.

    Questing was terrible. Mobs respawned faster than you could kill them, so again, you’d get swarmed. Then they had elite mobs amongst the regular mobs using the same goddamn model.

    There was no PvP balance, there were obvious classes that were OP and classes that needed help. I mean, WHO made WoW PvP look balanced. It was *that* bad.

    All in all, it sucked. And I ended up quitting only after a month or so. The big one however was when they fucked my realm by allowing all those Order guilds to transfer in without a thought to faction balance.

    Granted, no server will have 50:50 balance, but don’t let it go more than 60:40.

    They ask me why I’m bringin’ – A baby into battle – That’s really irresponsible – And getting them rattled
    I say "give me a break – Get off of my back damn, it" – I didn’t learn parenting – My daddy was a planet


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  2. 2013-03-24, 09:12 PM


    #22

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    While I loved WAR, I think one of their biggest mistakes was releasing the game a month before Wrath. Wrath, at least for me and my friends, was a highly anticipated expansion. While we really enjoyed playing WAR,Wrath was just more exciting and by the time we came back there were too few people playing. Which ultimately ruined the game experience because it required many people to really shine.


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  3. 2013-03-24, 09:21 PM


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    Telwar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warloff
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    Remember when WoW=Waiting on Warhammer?

    Oh, yes. That still gives me a chuckle.


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  4. 2013-03-24, 10:34 PM


    #24

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    A collection of some things, most got mentioned already.

    I think the main reason was that the hype was created with features who then got scrapped. Some stuff was temporary delayed like some classes. And what actually made it out of the door was buggy as hell. And even if it worked once, the pvp balance was horrible. Every fight was a huge. AOE- Lag fest. Defenders just mindlessly spam there AOE on the points attackers have to go through. And win because the lag made anything else impossible. And their Buff/Nerf policy was just completle chaos. Classes went from way op, to complete shit. And i mean not the "WoW whining"-Version of shit where 5% are the world. I mean absolute complete unplayable shit.


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  5. 2013-03-25, 12:05 AM


    #25

    Wilian

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher
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    I think most people had unsubscribed by that point anyways : P

    But yeah, that was a huge black mark for the game. I’m still blown away that it happened. How that’s even possible is truly beyond me.

    What was that? Something along the lines of Unsuscribe button vanishing in SWTOR homepage?

    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" – George Lucas 1988


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  6. 2013-03-25, 12:18 AM


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian
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    What was that? Something along the lines of Unsuscribe button vanishing in SWTOR homepage?

    No, they charged for multiple months at a time. So a number of people were instantly charged hundreds of dollars at once, with others being charged over a thousand dollars. Massive billing error.


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  7. 2013-03-25, 12:23 AM


    #27

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    I think that I am the only one happy with my WAR classs:P I played Chosen, was pretty op for a looong time, only Warrior Priests were pain in the ass to kill, but doable. I played Marauder too and during first months it was useless PvP class endgame-wise


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  8. 2013-03-25, 12:23 AM


    #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher
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    No, they charged for multiple months at a time. So a number of people were instantly charged hundreds of dollars at once, with others being charged over a thousand dollars. Massive billing error.

    It actually happened twice. The second time, one guy showed the screenshots of his bank account being pushed over $1,000,000 into the negatives…

    The worst part of the second time was that people who had actually unsubscribed were billed and their accounts reactivated.


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  9. 2013-03-25, 12:31 AM


    #29

    Wilian

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher
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    No, they charged for multiple months at a time. So a number of people were instantly charged hundreds of dollars at once, with others being charged over a thousand dollars. Massive billing error.

    Oooo right, I had actually managed to bury that somewhere deep and dark place in the back of my mind.

    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" – George Lucas 1988


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  10. 2013-03-25, 12:33 AM


    #30

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    Bought the Collector’s edition i was better off just setting fire to money instead.

    I’m gonna let ’em know that Dolemite is back on the scene! I’m gonna let ’em know that Dolemite is my name, and fuckin’ up motherfuckers is my game!


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  11. 2013-03-25, 01:35 AM


    #31

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    I spent over a year in Closed Beta and watched what "happened" to Warhammer Online. Mythic, as in Marc, really seemed to believe that WoW’s battlegrounds, aka Closed PvP, was the future for MMO’s. So literally the entire game was designed around it. Scenarios that would even include "dogs of war" to even the odds. No Keeps or Towers. Even the zones were laid out in a line.

    Well as more and more testers were invited in to Closed Beta. Mythic discovered that while they thought Closed PvP was the future, the ones they wanted to buy the game sure as hell didn’t. However, instead of scrapping the design and starting over? They decided to "fix" WAR. So with EA increasingly breathing down their necks. Mythic redirected resources towards making the game more Open PvP centric.

    The end result was a mishmash that ended up leaving pretty much everyone unsatisfied. Its Closed PvP roots were still very evident in having many Open PvP areas bisected by zone borders. Just as the resources taken away from finishing the original design were evident in delayed classes and canceled capitals. Leaving only one for each and gutting the strategic endgame.

    Just another game with lots of potential that suffered from an original design which the market didn’t actually want. The fact that EA now owned their asses made it a lot worse since the inevitable purge stripped away the talent and resources that could have helped WAR find a niche.

    ———- Post added 2013-03-24 at 08:36 PM ———-

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian
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    Oooo right, I had actually managed to bury that somewhere deep and dark place in the back of my mind.

    I actually got charged fourteen hundred all told. I had recently come back to give WAR another go too. Bad timing.

    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.


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  12. 2013-03-25, 07:49 AM


    #32

    Howlrunner

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightelfsb
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    So sad to read these replies. Kinda fuels my anger….Developers should really stop pushing out broken MMO’s

    Blame EA, not Mythic the dev, they would have wanted a lot more time. EA wanted to get an MMO out asap so they could start (in their minds) reaping in the "easy" cash that MMOs after WoW were thought to be able to bring. They also made the mistake in thinking the IP alone and fans seeming willingness to forgive bugged games would enable them to have an easy ride, and would let them release the game in a shitty state and patch it in later. The bugs on launche were awful with button delay, FPS issues even on top spec PCs, crashing and whatnot (yes, I played on EU launch day and was a pretty loyal fan, even played the Beta).

    Sad thing is? Had they actually released the game with decent end-game and less bugs, they might well have changed the outcome of the whole thing. The reviews were great, it had a fantastic world-known IP, the game itself was pretty decent and solid, and it had enormous sales on release. Just sad that EA got greedy and fucked the whole thing up. Even sadder is that they didn’t learn second time round with SWTOR


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  13. 2013-03-25, 08:18 AM


    #33

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    Well, EA was the worst company of the last year for a reason. No matter what they do, no matter what they say, in the gaming industry – they will forever be labeled as a cancer to all games.


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  14. 2013-03-25, 08:59 AM


    #34

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    Warhammer Online has shown an objective truth: no one cares about PvP.

    Developers have to do much, much more and don’t expect things to get going by throwing all the schoolkids in one bin and expecting long-lasting fun of them slaughtering each other.


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  15. 2013-03-25, 09:02 AM


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackhisis
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    Warhammer Online has shown an objective truth: no one cares about PvP.

    Developers have to do much, much more and don’t expect things to get going by throwing all the schoolkids in one bin and expecting long-lasting fun of them slaughtering each other.

    I think if the game were fully realized and finished, and especially if it had a good developer behind it, it would have done far better. The biggest issue with the game is that the concepts behind it were generally half baked, implementation of many of the systems was half assed, and there were content/quality gaps that screwed up the game. Mythic just aren’t a very good developer (despite DAOC’s success) and they really shouldn’t have been handling the property.

    There’s absolutely a market for PvP focused games though.

    Is it huge? No.
    But is it there and potentially profitable? Absolutely.


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  16. 2013-03-25, 01:31 PM


    #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackhisis
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    Warhammer Online has shown an objective truth: no one cares about PvP.

    Developers have to do much, much more and don’t expect things to get going by throwing all the schoolkids in one bin and expecting long-lasting fun of them slaughtering each other.

    Actually lots of people "care" about PvP. The problem was that Mythic decided people cared most about Closed, Instanced, PvP. They discovered they were wrong but tried to just staple Open, World, PvP on top of it. Wasn’t the best fit.

    Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
    Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
    Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
    And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.


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  17. 2013-03-25, 01:36 PM


    #37

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    It’s still the best pvp mmo to this day tied with DaoC, the pve is dead though there is only pvp now. Also they where pushed by EA to release before wrath of the lich king so it was a real mess as the game was not ready by miles.

    Also the game is still active there is pvp in all tiers.

    Last edited by ParanoiD84; 2013-03-25 at 01:39 PM.

    Do you hear the voices too?


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  18. 2013-03-25, 01:39 PM


    #38

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    The game was awful I remember when it came out half my guild went out and bought it and played for roughly a week. It was just awful and I never went back


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  19. 2013-03-25, 06:43 PM


    #39

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    Think I lasted about a month before uninstalling it. It was hardly optimized and ran horribly even on a great computer. PvP, the one thing it had going for it was unbalanced beyond recognition. The game was rushed out the door before it was ready due to upper management incompetence at BioWare Mythic. Anyway, someone called "EA Louse" wanted to expose them and why WHO failed if you want to read it here .


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  20. 2013-03-25, 11:34 PM


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    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84
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    It’s still the best pvp mmo to this day tied with DaoC, the pve is dead though there is only pvp now. Also they where pushed by EA to release before wrath of the lich king so it was a real mess as the game was not ready by miles.

    Also the game is still active there is pvp in all tiers.

    I’m sorry but I couldn’t help myself but laugh at reading this. Warhammer and "best… mmo" should never be used in the same sentence. As for pve, of course it’s dead because there really wasn’t any pve to write home about. Nothing of substance. Sure, they were pushed by EA but that’s EA’s fault… I’ll agree with you on this point.

    The pvp is still active on all tiers? I can’t fathom this being true considering there is 1 NA server, 1 EU server, and 1 oceanic server. The pvp is horrendous. Warrior Priest taking on 10 players without even taking a scratch nor flesh wound? Bright Wizards blowing up people in a single GCD? How about the pvp scenario where you’re in a volcano. All order had to do to win was bring a few Swordmasters and AOE Knockback all of the Chaos into the lava. Need I go further? Those are just a few of the insanely stupid design flaws this game had/has.

    A troll is a troll and a roll is a roll, and if we feed them trolls then we don’t eat no rolls.


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STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP > How was DAoC pvp more "skill" based than other games?

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View Full Version : How was DAoC pvp more "skill" based than other games?


Aidank
02.01.2012, 11:31 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?


serovan
02.01.2012, 11:33 PM
Most likely because gear didn’t decide the outcome, Ive heard getting the pvp set in that game was easy so everyone was on the same playing field.

If not, it should be that way anyway.


xxdragonragexx
02.01.2012, 11:34 PM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.


Aidank
02.01.2012, 11:35 PM
Most likely because gear didn’t decide the outcome, Ive heard getting the pvp set in that game was easy so everyone was on the same playing field.

If not, it should be that way anyway.

Well, that’s not much different from games like wow, and I don’t really see how that makes a game skill based.

In arena past around 2200 rating pretty much everyone had the exact same gear, unless they had some pve legendary or some trinket but those weren’t really all that common.


Javacup
02.01.2012, 11:45 PM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

Cheating is a must because your leader doesn’t pan and react fast enough…? How is that not a skill problem?

Interrupt on casting adds in something called good positioning and peels, not tanking everything like other games.


Moriam
02.01.2012, 11:46 PM
Good topic. Lets get some daoc fanboys in here to respond though..
Was there any rankng system?
Also i have read that pve gear was better for pvp than pvp gear. Is this true?

Noctournys
02.01.2012, 11:49 PM
Cheating is a must because your leader doesn’t pan and react fast enough…? How is that not a skill problem?

Interrupt on casting adds in something called good positioning and peels, not tanking everything like other games.

.. so does getting hit reset your swing timer?

No?

Justify that one.


Girwen
02.01.2012, 11:51 PM
DAOC was rarely about skill. It was like most mmos about the number of people and the group make ups. The class balance was never what some claim it to be. Still it was a very awesome world to splore and had many fun times getting killed and killing =)

Moriam
02.01.2012, 11:51 PM
Cheating is a must because your leader doesn’t pan and react fast enough…? How is that not a skill problem?

Interrupt on casting adds in something called good positioning and peels, not tanking everything like other games.

What are you implying? I can agree that swtor does not reward good positioning and peels well but wow really did. I am not sure what game you are referring to.


Noctournys
02.01.2012, 11:56 PM
Well, that’s not much different from games like wow, and I don’t really see how that makes a game skill based.

In arena past around 2200 rating pretty much everyone had the exact same gear, unless they had some pve legendary or some trinket but those weren’t really all that common.

as much as i like to slap people over the unfounded love for DaoC, i do have to say the following in DaoC’s defense:

pretty much everyone in DaoC PvPed.

substantially less than 20% of WoW players have ever reached even middling arena ranks and almost 3 out of 5 have never stepped into an Arena at all… hell almost 2 out of 5 have never even PvPed.


Xsorus
02.01.2012, 11:58 PM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

Hmmm, some of the things you just said were changed within the first 6 months of DAOC, DAOC is like 10 years old now… So yea..

For example, No CC breaks….. Purge, Group Purge, Mez Break, Things like Charge on Melee DPS…. Pretty standard stuff for most of the games life.

The Interrupt system is honestly the best thing they did in that game, as it required skill to play a caster instead of standing right in front of the melee and spamming whatever your spell is. You had to be situationally aware of you surroundings on the Caster othewise you got crapped on, Your reward was basically high damage.

Perma Stun, again didn’t exist after the first 6 months of the games life, so that’s moot.

Archers, pretty much what you stated is false after first 6 months..2-3 Hits, yea not happening in DAOC….

Basically when I look at your post, I look at someone who played DAOC probably within the first 3 months of the game, and quit.. So you pretty much have zero say on how DAOC evolved as a PVP system.

Though when I see the last thing you stated, Maphack, aka radar, It boggles my mind, cause that easily didn’t come along till at least a year, So either you intentionally got your information wrong, Or you frankly were just bad.

But anyway, One group Mez killing your group was basically true if you were the worst 8man ever, Which judging by your post, was quite possible.

But lets go a step further, If you played Hib, it was actually better to be hit by a Group Mez because of Group Purge (CC immunity after Purging it) and Frankly if you managed to get a Instant Group Mez off on any Alb premade back NF i’d be amazed.

In closing, don’t speak of DAOC"s pvp when you’ve shown little grasp of it.


xxdragonragexx
02.02.2012, 12:01 AM
Hmmm, some of the things you just said were changed within the first 6 months of DAOC, DAOC is like 10 years old now… So yea..

For example, No CC breaks….. Purge, Group Purge, Mez Break, Things like Charge on Melee DPS…. Pretty standard stuff for most of the games life.

The Interrupt system is honestly the best thing they did in that game, as it required skill to play a caster instead of standing right in front of the melee and spamming whatever your spell is. You had to be situationally aware of you surroundings on the Caster othewise you got crapped on, Your reward was basically high damage.

Perma Stun, again didn’t exist after the first 6 months of the games life, so that’s moot.

Archers, pretty much what you stated is false after first 6 months..2-3 Hits, yea not happening in DAOC….

Basically when I look at your post, I look at someone who played DAOC probably within the first 3 months of the game, and quit.. So you pretty much have zero say on how DAOC evolved as a PVP system.

Though when I see the last thing you stated, Maphack, aka radar, It boggles my mind, cause that easily didn’t come along till at least a year, So either you intentionally got your information wrong, Or you frankly were just bad.

But anyway, One group Mez killing your group was basically true if you were the worst 8man ever, Which judging by your post, was quite possible.

But lets go a step further, If you played Hib, it was actually better to be hit by a Group Mez because of Group Purge (CC immunity after Purging it) and Frankly if you managed to get a Instant Group Mez off on any Alb premade back NF i’d be amazed.

In closing, don’t speak of DAOC"s pvp when you’ve shown little grasp of it.

So why are you in this game if daoc has the best pvp?

One more thing I forgot to add.

BUFFBOTS. Players basically need 2 accounts just so they can have twice the stats than the rest. Even if gear was easy to get, paying for another account gives a big advantage.


TheRealBrave
02.02.2012, 12:04 AM
So why are you in this game if daoc has the best pvp?

One more thing I forgot to add.

BUFFBOTS. Players basically need 2 accounts just so they can have twice the stats than the rest. Even if gear was easy to get, paying for another account gives a big advantage.

You don’t have to have buff bots in DAoC anymore. Just throwing that out there, and it was never hard to get someone to buff you with their bot anyways. You seem to be terribly uninformed.


Ribtips
02.02.2012, 12:06 AM
DaoC has nothing on AOC

Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:06 AM
Good topic. Lets get some daoc fanboys in here to respond though..
Was there any rankng system?
Also i have read that pve gear was better for pvp than pvp gear. Is this true?

That’s not how DAOC worked.

What is now considered the carrot in terms of progression in PvP in most MMO’s worked differently in DAOC. In DAOC you built your Template before PvPing, The way it worked was you went out and depending on the time frame of daoc (Before TOA or After) if before TOA you simply bought crafted gear and built a template off that, and based on the fact it was very easily to reach the stat cap in that game (There was a stat cap, Basically 75 on stats, 25 on resists, 200 HP, TOA changed it, allowed for going over the caps by 100 on stats, and 400 on HP) TOA introduced Artifacts and such, so you could potentially have cap weakness’s (like avoiding matter resist, or lowering it, and relying on buffs to cover it) to pickup items with abilities you could pop. All of this was achievable before you even entered PVP. So you either bought or PVEd your gear first.

Now what I said about what DAOC did differently is the Realm Rank system, What you see today as progression in gear was achieved through the Realm Rank system instead. So going into fresh level 50 PVP, you were Rank 1, And you’d get things like Rank 1l2, 1l3,1l4 and this would go up to the original Rank 10, Which is basically 100 Levels of PvP.

This allowed you to spend points into stats,abilities and such, But it was basically the same carrot.

a Rank 10 player was remarkably more powerful then a Rank 1, At about Rank 5 most 8mans could compete though if they were good.

How did people decide who had skill vs who didn’t in DAOC, since no actual ranking system took place?

Well simple, You simply killed your opponent more then they killed you, If you dominated the server with your 8man, people knew about it, No one talked about ****** groups that died all the time.


HelloKittyIsland
02.02.2012, 12:06 AM
If you needed maphacks to do good in 8v8 roaming rvr then you were just bad.

Complete open world RvR(pvp) over 3 different connecting areas is just awesome. There was no PvP gear and no "attributes" that were only for pvp that made you better. There were times were you would have battles of 100+v100+ people at castles. Each realm had 2 relics toward the inner most area of their RvR region that gave bonuses, if you owned the other realms’ relics.

Attacks interrupting casters made it so you had to be somewhat skilled while doing battles, so you wouldn’t be completely useless.

There was no permanent stun.
There were cc breaks.

DAoC had by far the best PvP, but the PvE was not all that enjoyable.

The buffbots did start to make it suck, but thats only if you solo. Has no real effect in groups or zerging it up with 50+ people.


Moriam
02.02.2012, 12:08 AM
You don’t have to have buff bots in DAoC anymore. Just throwing that out there, and it was never hard to get someone to buff you with their bot anyways. You seem to be terribly uninformed.

So what did the pvp revolve around? Group vs group pvp? How big? What was the goal? Control of resources? Was there a way to rank people? How did you gauge how skilled a player was?


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:09 AM
So why are you in this game if daoc has the best pvp?

One more thing I forgot to add.

BUFFBOTS. Players basically need 2 accounts just so they can have twice the stats than the rest. Even if gear was easy to get, paying for another account gives a big advantage.

DAOC is a 10 year old game, Really that simple.

Buffbots were a problem if you were solo and didn’t have one, But over the years they’ve somewhat removed the need for em, You could buy potions, used this Buff NPC they have, or do what I did for the longest time and just use the Champion LvL buffs (they were crappy, but I was played a Valkyrie then and could still win most 1v1’s)

In groups you simply had to have enough buffs to cover your group after they added Buff Shears, as you simply could not run without a buffer and expect to not have to port back to the keep after every fight, and you would have to cover the buffs mid fight as you’d gear sheared, or you’d rez someone with no buffs

Then of course you had classes like the Vampiir that had no need of buffs.


ReddNekk
02.02.2012, 12:10 AM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

I remember that all too well. 90% of the time in a one on one "fight" it was "stun-nuke-nuke-nuke-dead". I’ve never seen such insane CC as there was in that game.


TheRealBrave
02.02.2012, 12:11 AM
So what did the pvp revolve around? Group vs group pvp? How big? What was the goal? Control of resources? Was there a way to rank people? How did you gauge how skilled a player was?

Solo… 8 mans… raids… a lot of different ways to PvP in that game. It was skill based, gear didn’t matter too much and wasn’t very hard to obtain (pre-ToA). Not entirely sure what to tell you, you could tell how skilled a player was by observing them like in any other MMO without a ladder system. Because the game didn’t have rated battlegrounds or arenas it somehow meant the game involved no skill? I’m just curious at what kind of point you’re trying to make .


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:12 AM
So what did the pvp revolve around? Group vs group pvp? How big? What was the goal? Control of resources? Was there a way to rank people? How did you gauge how skilled a player was?

There was different levels of the pvp in DAOC depending on what you wanted to do.

Generally speaking, you had

Group vs Group (8v8) which was basically 8mans roaming around looking for other 8mans.

You had Zerg Buster groups, basically specific groups built for blowing the crap out of zergs and doing alright in PvP, really depended on the setup and the realm.

You had the Stealther Game, basically Stealthers either zerging it up, or 1v1 or small manning.

You had the visible who went out looking for 1v1’s and small mans, these were solo’s and such.

You had the actual Realm Combat, which involved zerging and taking keeps/towers (depending on OF and NF) trying to get the relics of the opposing side for a Bonus (20% melee or spell damage)


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:13 AM
I remember that all too well. 90% of the time in a one on one "fight" it was "stun-nuke-nuke-nuke-dead". I’ve never seen such insane CC as there was in that game.

That was either before 6 month mark of the game (when CC immunity wasn’t in) or after the 6 month mark of the game, and you were to stupid to have heat resist or purge the stun.


Moriam
02.02.2012, 12:13 AM
Solo… 8 mans… raids… a lot of different ways to PvP in that game. It was skill based, gear didn’t matter too much and wasn’t very hard to obtain (pre-ToA). Not entirely sure what to tell you, you could tell how skilled a player was by observing them like in any other MMO without a ladder system. Because the game didn’t have rated battlegrounds or arenas it somehow meant the game involved no skill? I’m just curious at what kind of point you’re trying to make .

Just curious


xxdragonragexx
02.02.2012, 12:13 AM
So what did the pvp revolve around? Group vs group pvp? How big? What was the goal? Control of resources? Was there a way to rank people? How did you gauge how skilled a player was?

Basically 8 man group would roam in open world pvp. Of course, whoever is leading has to have maphack cause whoever gets the drop on someone has the most advantage. Only a few participated in it.

I didn’t even do it, I enjoy defending keeps more. My wizard basically had 4 buttons. Fireball then insta + fireball then realm rank direct damage then darkness falls staff proc. Usually kills any caster I target on the keep.

Basically if a caster gets in range, he dies much like an operative killing someone in 3 hits while in a stunlock.


Javacup
02.02.2012, 12:14 AM
I know it must be shocking to some people that people actually rvr’d because it was enjoyable and not a grind for gear.

Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:15 AM
Like I stated, skill was determined on how well you did at killing your enemies, if you did well, people knew who your group was and feared you. No one feared bad players and they’re not remembered.

Plus you could see in the world chat when someone killed someone.

SO it’d be

Player 1 has been killed by Player 2.

So if you see a string of Player X has been killed by Player 2, it probably means player 2 just pbae’d the crap out of a zerg.


Aidank
02.02.2012, 12:15 AM
as much as i like to slap people over the unfounded love for DaoC, i do have to say the following in DaoC’s defense:

pretty much everyone in DaoC PvPed.

substantially less than 20% of WoW players have ever reached even middling arena ranks and almost 3 out of 5 have never stepped into an Arena at all… hell almost 2 out of 5 have never even PvPed.

Well, that’s mostly a community problem, not the game designer’s faults. After a couple of my friends quit I went pretty much an entire arena season looking for someone that was half decent that I could 3v3 with because literally 2/3 of the playerbase didn’t even turn with their mouse.

You can lead a horse to water…


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:18 AM
Basically 8 man group would roam in open world pvp. Of course, whoever is leading has to have maphack cause whoever gets the drop on someone has the most advantage. Only a few participated in it.

I didn’t even do it, I enjoy defending keeps more. My wizard basically had 4 buttons. Fireball then insta + fireball then realm rank direct damage then darkness falls staff proc. Usually kills any caster I target on the keep.

Basically if a caster gets in range, he dies much like an operative killing someone in 3 hits while in a stunlock.

Not true on first part

Second part, Learn to Pan.

Third Part.

Wizards didn’t have an insta besides VP from Realm Ranks.

you basically had Bolt (cast time) and your DD, since you’re talking about Early Game…


pherball
02.02.2012, 12:18 AM
I remember that all too well. 90% of the time in a one on one "fight" it was "stun-nuke-nuke-nuke-dead". I’ve never seen such insane CC as there was in that game.

I’ve been CC’d more often in TOR than I have ever been in DAoC. DAoC had proper DR and immunity to CC; TOR does not. I could easily get around CC in DAoC w/ Purge, which was on a longer RUT/CD than what we have in TOR.

I know it must be shocking to some people that people actually rvr’d because it was enjoyable and not a grind for gear.

I RvR’d because it was fun, and I loved it. I also RvR’d b/c of the realm rank system. When an enemy saw your nameplate it was your realm rank, not your actual name. So people knew what rank you were immediately. Buying new abilities w/ RP’s (realm points) was a second fun way to spec your character, and always gave something to look forward to.

Fast forward to TOR, and once you are Battlemaster there is very little long-term incentive to log into the game other than dailies/weeklies. OWPvP is broken, and people are afk’ing themselves to Battlemaster in Ilum. TOR’s PvP right not is not sustainable.


Javacup
02.02.2012, 12:19 AM
It doesn’t surprise me that dragonrage trolls the thread and then finally tells us that he avoids all organized 8v8, and sits in a keep with a zerg.

xxdragonragexx
02.02.2012, 12:19 AM
LOL that game also favors people who have way too much on their hands. At that time, the best gear was craftable. I had to put mods in it. I can put whatever mods I want.

But here’s the kicker, a realm rank 100 character will have more crits, more damage, and more utility than someone that is realm rank 1. Those guys spent years building their characters.

If you think fresh 50s in this game couldn’t stand on competitive grounds against a battlemaster then in that game, you need to spend a lot of time just to have the same stats as the person playing for a long time.


Powerr
02.02.2012, 12:20 AM
ill talk in sec

Javacup
02.02.2012, 12:22 AM
LOL that game also favors people who have way too much on their hands. At that time, the best gear was craftable. I had to put mods in it. I can put whatever mods I want.

But here’s the kicker, a realm rank 100 character will have more crits, more damage, and more utility than someone that is realm rank 1. Those guys spent years building their characters.

If you think fresh 50s in this game couldn’t stand on competitive grounds against a battlemaster then in that game, you need to spend a lot of time just to have the same stats as the person playing for a long time.

Oh my god shame on mythic for giving some advantage to people who played the game more often. A skilled <rr5 group will still dominate a terrible rr10 group that plays too much.


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:25 AM
LOL that game also favors people who have way too much on their hands. At that time, the best gear was craftable. I had to put mods in it. I can put whatever mods I want.

But here’s the kicker, a realm rank 100 character will have more crits, more damage, and more utility than someone that is realm rank 1. Those guys spent years building their characters.

If you think fresh 50s in this game couldn’t stand on competitive grounds against a battlemaster then in that game, you need to spend a lot of time just to have the same stats as the person playing for a long time.

Believe this was already stated by me, early in this thread.

The Gear progression you see in Modern MMO’s was converted into a Realm Rank Progression in DAOC.

As for who had to much time on their hands, Not correct, It more aptly rewarded people who were actually good at PvP, because unlike modern MMO’s, DAOC did not reward losing, You did not get anything for not killing the person you were fighting.

Meaning the more you won, the faster Realm Rank you got.

You didn’t need Rank 10 to compete against Rank 10’s either, like I stated in earlier post, if you group was good, and you worked well together, Usually around Rank 5 you could start putting up a fight against the higher rank guild groups if they were just bad.

The game didn’t punish you completely being bad though, cause even if you were terrible you could still zerg around with a large group and wreck other zergs and get Realm Points, so you would eventually get Rank 10 even if you were terrible.


MalFunkShun
02.02.2012, 12:26 AM
So what did the pvp revolve around? Group vs group pvp? How big? What was the goal? Control of resources? Was there a way to rank people? How did you gauge how skilled a player was?

Pvp revolved around a multitude of things. Keeps for example. By owning more keeps than the other realms, your realm had access to a PvE dungeon (Darkness Falls). It was also a good way to get extra renown (used for pvp leveling). These keeps could be upgraded by having stronger guards, gates, etc.. By controlling more keeps, you could reduce the amount of guards where an opposing realm kept Relics. Relic raids were insanely difficult to pull off, usually due cross-realm spying. These relics were then used to give your realm a buff. (Damage, renown gain, and I forget what else)

You would be looking at either group v group (8v8) or zerg vs zerg. Typically each zerg would have between 50-75 people. Mind you, when the 3 factions collide, it was a hell of a fight. The only "resources" in the game were the Relics (which happened a lot in the early morning hours, yeah, it was that hard to get them).

There WAS a way to rank people actually. DAoC’s website actually had a counter for all your renown (pvp points) gains for the week. IIRC it also showed how many kills and deaths you had as well. They typically updated these leaderboards weekly. One was for Overall Renown, and another for Weekly Renown.

Honestly, you gauged a person’s skill by how often you died to them, or how often you killed them. Some of it could be attributed to someone’s realm rank, some could be how often you see their name killing someone in chat.

Another thing that made PVP great for DAoC was the simplicity of it. Casters had the highest DPS. The downside to this was that if they were damaged, they completely lost the ability to cast that spell… there was no "pushback" feature like EVERY mmo has today. You would have to recast it. They also had the lowest hitpoints, and worst armor.

ANY melee who got a hold of a caster would usually tear him apart. Since the caster literally couldn’t do anything… except run.

I could list more reasons… like how unique the game was in terms of spells and classes.. Theurgist’s main DPS came from summoning pets to attack you… LOTS and lots of pets. Which either could stun you, or just DPS you. I hated them, and I even played a caster.


pherball
02.02.2012, 12:29 AM
Oh my god shame on mythic for giving some advantage to people who played the game more often. A skilled <rr5 group will still dominate a terrible rr10 group that plays too much.

That was the best thing about DAoC. You were still more than competitive beign lower realm rank if you were good. Once you get up to RR10-11-12 you’re basically buying things that aren’t really necessary, or providing much improvement. A group of RR5, which was pretty easy to get as an 8man, could still consistently take out the highest RR groups.

Battlemaster in TOR pre-Ilum garbage was probably the equivalent of RR4-5 in DAoC as far as time invested (514k RPs @ 100-200 a kill).


TheRealBrave
02.02.2012, 12:30 AM
LOL that game also favors people who have way too much on their hands. At that time, the best gear was craftable. I had to put mods in it. I can put whatever mods I want.

But here’s the kicker, a realm rank 100 character will have more crits, more damage, and more utility than someone that is realm rank 1. Those guys spent years building their characters.

If you think fresh 50s in this game couldn’t stand on competitive grounds against a battlemaster then in that game, you need to spend a lot of time just to have the same stats as the person playing for a long time.

Realm Rank 100? Okay you have no idea what you’re talking about.


Mavella
02.02.2012, 12:33 AM
DAoC around the time of its first expansion (Shrouded Isles) required little PvE to actually get into PvP once you reached level 50. If you saved up enough gold while leveling you could afford to craft a set of gear which capped all your stats and resistances no matter what class you played. There were a couple pieces of armor that had chance to heal for a small amount if that piece got hit which were a little superior to crafts but it wasn’t a total deal breaker to not have.

You could also get Realm Rank 4L2 by 50 which allowed you to get RR5L0 within a week or two of getting 50 allowing everyone to get their core set of realm abilites (PvP actives and passives aquired for participating in pvp). Past RR5 you would pretty much have more passives making your character slightly better than the average RR5L0 player. Again not a huge difference but a little reward for sticking with a character for a year or more allowed you to push into the RR8-9-10 area if you were an active pvper.

The RvR had a purpose. It wasn’t about completing daily quests or a rating. The only thing akin to a rating in that game would be LWRP (Last week RP total) for a character, a high amount obviously meant you were scoring a high amount of kills and participating heavily in RvR. There was also a lucrative PvP/PvE dungeon that each realm could access depending on who controlled the majority of keeps. A lot of PvP happened in there and it was easily one of the best places to level up and aquire money for the first couple years of the game. There was also the Relic system which provided a 10%/20% bonus of magic / physical damage depending on how many enemy relics you held in big keeps within your frontier. They were attack-able at any time and well worth controlling or preventing your enemy from controlling considering the bonuses they provided.

Casters were extremely powerful which is why the interrupt system was so punishing in that game but skilled casters were easily some of the most dangerous enemies you could come across. Giving them a small window of opportunity could easily result in them pumping out tons of damage in a very short time. 2-3 PBAoE casters could easily wipe out zergs of 40+ players in a matter of seconds if they caught them in the most favorable of conditions (zerg clumped up all nailed with CC or just not paying attention, attacking a keep door, etc).

The CC system was also pretty balanced since it gave quite a long time of immunity, melee stuns giving 5 * the duration in immunity and casted roots/stuns giving a minute of immunity after being broken or fading. Mezzes could also be purged via realm abilities, decreased in duration significantly for many melee classes, and cleansed by support classes. This system also allowed for single groups (8 people) to combat much larger groups of more unorganized opponents and be able to win. I participated in a 8v32 and actually won due to impressive teamwork on our part.

Sadly their second expansion (Trials of Atlantis) added a significant PvE hurdle to be able to successfully enter the RvR stage (a month+ to level and easily a month+ to finish all the required ToA PvE content). This where many players mark the decline of DAoC because it became more and more about PvE before you could successfully RvR.


anasa
02.02.2012, 12:34 AM
Daoc needs more skill mostly cause of it’s 10 years old interface. It’s so hard to play at high level.
But the thing that makes DAoC great is the that – if I renew today after 3 years, my RR9 shadowblade is still there. Ready to kill after I make a her a new template armor.

If I renew my WoW Paladin who has been inactive for 6 months, she’ll be an outdated piece of trash.


Javacup
02.02.2012, 12:39 AM
The toa pve was actually a bit of a joke, between necro + cleric duo, or stacking animists, you could roll through any encounter with 1-2 people dual boxing.

My biggest complaints
– Window dragging
– Screenshot spamming
– Lag casting
– Playing mordred, portal macroing away whenever someone is about to lose a fight (yes, applied to groups often too)
– That little lag spike whenever a group comes into clip, kind of a dead giveaway you had incoming


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:39 AM
You can easily tell a Modern MMO player who plays casters vs one who played a DAOC caster.

Modern MMO caster, does not pan, and will wait till Melee gets to him, DAOC one, will pan and is paranoid as hell of letting a player get to him.

It very easy to determine when watching a video.

Modern MMO’s in general just don’t pan at all.

This was very noticeable in Rift for example during White fall BG, My group would side swipe the enemies or hit them from behind when they were in Middle, and they would never see it coming.. and really, you should be able to see it coming in that game, as it wasn’t exactly hard to see the group running by.


fungihoujo
02.02.2012, 12:44 AM
as much as i like to slap people over the unfounded love for DaoC, i do have to say the following in DaoC’s defense:

pretty much everyone in DaoC PvPed.

substantially less than 20% of WoW players have ever reached even middling arena ranks and almost 3 out of 5 have never stepped into an Arena at all… hell almost 2 out of 5 have never even PvPed.

Yes… but other mmos have enjoyable pve- including this one. Thus, many players are pvers. DAoC pve was absolutely awful, so there was nothing else to do, and if say, a server capped at 500- those 500 would almost all be wanting to pvp.

TOR- if you have 500, chance are half don’t pvp much or at all, another chunk split their time between all aspects- and you might end up with 100 or likely less actually interested in pvping most of the time.


KrustyDog
02.02.2012, 12:47 AM
Well, that’s not much different from games like wow, and I don’t really see how that makes a game skill based.

In arena past around 2200 rating pretty much everyone had the exact same gear, unless they had some pve legendary or some trinket but those weren’t really all that common.

So what your saying is 5% of the people had the exact same WAY overpowered gear. 5% is a far cry from "all the people."


Powerr
02.02.2012, 12:48 AM
DAoC was very very high skill cap game.

Noobs were soooo bad, and the best players were killable yet, dominant.
Killable in the sense you could kill the best caster in the game rank 11 or whatever in 4 good melee swings. Yet dominant in the sense, they could just drop people in 3-4 nukes.

Now, different types of team setups were what made the game so competitive

You had:

Caster extend groups
The Albion realm caster extend group consisted of generally a cabalist (body 50% debuff + disease), 2x sorcerers (1 CC spec, 1 body nuke spec), a theurgist or 2 (spam pets that chase enemies, ice pets snare, earth pets hit hard, wind pets stun lock), an armsmen or paladin tank(peel bot! most essential! HAS TO SNARE ALL MELEE, SLAM [9sec stun] targets and call for burst) 2x healers [high realm rank meant they would have realm abilities such as group shields against melee and magic, purge, higher heal stats, mastery of physical defense]

Melee train groups
The midgard realm was most unanimous for this setup

2x beserker (turn into a bear and hit like a truck), skald(super speed and cc class), warrior(peel class) , runemaster(PBT aka group buff that makes targets miss 3 or so attacks in a row), shaman (spec buffs aka str/con, dex/qui and buffs that healers didnt have, AND MASSIVE INTERRUPTS/BUFF SHEARS (steal buffs), healer(mez spec), healer(heal/melee attack speed buff spec aka CELERITY)

Hybrid Groups
Hib had strong hybrid groups composed of casters and melee etc etc etc

Anyways in DAoC your group moved so fast that the most efficient way to roam was to /stick your driver who was mainly the CC sorc on alb, CC healer on mid, or bard on hib.

Imagine a game where groups of 8 run around a planet (frontier in daoc) and RESPECT other guilds fights, if you saw 2 realms fighting each other, there was MUTUAL RESPECT from all players and they would not RED ITS DEAD.

Imagine a game where your reputation was the only thing that mattered. People that assjammed fights were blacklisted and called out on the forums, never to get groups again. If you didnt have a good guild or good rep, you would simply never get in a decent 8 man.

Honable fighting at its finest.

gosh darn i miss daoc

if you werent a MASTER at panning the camera, kiting, snaring your target as melee, NOT OVEREXTENDING, you were as good as dead.

If you overextended or "fell behind" aka got rooted or just slow to pull back, your team lost, and you probably got yelled at.


Aidank
02.02.2012, 12:51 AM
So what your saying is 5% of the people had the exact same WAY overpowered gear. 5% is a far cry from "all the people."

The problem was the most people just didn’t pvp… If you actually tried, and played with other people that actually tried, getting 2200 wasn’t difficult. You can’t really blame the game for the fact that the majority of the playerbase was so afraid of actually pvping.


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:52 AM
Yes… but other mmos have enjoyable pve- including this one. Thus, many players are pvers. DAoC pve was absolutely awful, so there was nothing else to do, and if say, a server capped at 500- those 500 would almost all be wanting to pvp.

TOR- if you have 500, chance are half don’t pvp much or at all, another chunk split their time between all aspects- and you might end up with 100 or likely less actually interested in pvping most of the time.

DAOC actually had a very good PVE system, sorry to say.


Girwen
02.02.2012, 12:55 AM
I think my fondest memory was sadly a bug in this game. It was just so many giggles. I had a enchanter i was messing with in the teens and a patch messed up the way pets worked. I could stand on a bridge and wait for anybody of any level to come by and send my helper after them. Rarely failed that after they got done with the horse ride and into a battle my pet would attack them out of nowhere and i would get credit. It was much much giggles.

Javacup
02.02.2012, 12:56 AM
DAOC actually had a very good PVE system, sorry to say.

Like I said in my previous post, you could abuse it but yeah.

Actual raid groups doing ML’s/dragons and such was fun… But animist/thurg mass pet attacking messing with bosses defenses, buffed necro pets being nearly unkillable to melee, spiritmaster pets close to necros.


Vylettes
02.02.2012, 01:00 AM
Positioning mattered. Casters/Healers couldnt cast at ALL if something hit them, they would get interrupted. I remember the first day of WoW going omg I can cast while people are hitting me!!!!

Working as a team, even while leveling, was also important. Healers were mostly that, healers. For a healer to solo a npc it was usually a much lower level npc since they didn’t have a lot of damage. Put a healer + a dps or tank together and the power of the group would increase dramatically for pve.

8 man groups had specific make ups. You needed a class that could give group speed, 2 healers (that way if one healer was being interrupted, the other healer could still heal), and damage dealers and a crowd control class. All the specific things like crowd control/healing/high damage were all specific to characters. You did not have one char that could heal/dmg/cc all in one. That made the character rolls a lot more focused.

You even had an entire other subset of classes that would NEVER get a group, ie the stealthers. They were not good at all with groups since most of their moves came out of stealth and they didn’t have any cc-reduction abilities. But the stealthers ruled the bridges and thoroughfares of the pvp zones if they caught you alone.

But, since the game was seriously based on skill, someone who couldnt play their class would just drop dead to someone who knew how to play their class due to interrupts etc, it wasnt a game for the masses. People who sucked can play WoW but not DAOC, which means a lower population for DAOC than WoW and other games.

Every other game I have played since, its more like every man for themselves, even in group scenarios. The only every man for themselves gameplay in DAOC was the solo 1v1, which was mostly stealthers. You did not play badly or stupidly while in a group because you would get a reputation and no one would group you again.


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 01:02 AM
Like I said in my previous post, you could abuse it but yeah.

Actual raid groups doing ML’s/dragons and such was fun… But animist/thurg mass pet attacking messing with bosses defenses, buffed necro pets being nearly unkillable to melee, spiritmaster pets close to necros.

Hib and Alb had it rough on ML’s and Dragons, because of the way Theurgist/Animist worked it didn’t require a huge raid and didn’t foster realm pride like midgard did.

Mid’s didn’t have that classes, so that meant if you wanted to take on a Dragon or an ML encounter, it meant bringing people…

I remember doing ML raids, with 400 people in Midgard, 400 people.. moving around killing things.. was hilarious..


Javacup
02.02.2012, 01:07 AM
My most memorable moment was the often confused "you stole my cloudsong", was in the vent when it happened, hilarious until people thought it was wow related.

Saerol
02.02.2012, 01:21 AM
DAoC made PvPers keep playing despite any reward besides the combat itself for years even after they had hit the rank caps. Gear was a means to an end to most players, building the "right" combination of dropped and crafted/spellcrafted items to make the most out of your character.

Konraxhatred
02.02.2012, 01:25 AM
DAoC made PvPers keep playing despite any reward besides the combat itself for years even after they had hit the rank caps. Gear was a means to an end to most players, building the "right" combination of dropped and crafted/spellcrafted items to make the most out of your character.

THIS is why this game is still alive, if someone had a better temp then you, you couldn’t beat them but for them to have that temp took LOTS of time, tons of farming and plat to do so


Konraxhatred
02.02.2012, 01:25 AM
I also love the fact is when a spellcrafter is crafting there was a "SMALL" chance of him blowing up and dieing lol

jockekanske
02.02.2012, 01:52 AM
the synergy between 8ppl vs 8(or more) needs more skill then anything ive played so far and for a diffrent goal, not gear or anything(as i saw realm rank more as a bonus for my character), but the thrill for another awsome 8vs8 fight!

totally miss all the good grp vs grp fights that could drag on for a long time aswell and the joy to beat that high realm rank group with excellent teamwork, all the kiting, interupting, assisting etc love it !


Kyoshir
02.02.2012, 02:27 AM
Thing i like alot about daoc was getting gear to pvp was easy and also stealthers were fun climbing keep walls killin casters nuking ur realm outside also rvr u took keeps for relic made a point to go out and pvp. The realm rank made a point to pvp then just gear as it is nowadays. ALSO FFA SERVER BEST IDEA EVER.

Powerr
02.02.2012, 02:35 AM
http://vnboards.ign.com/ywain/b23441/115921849/p2

WATCH THE VIDEO CALLED PLAYER BASE 2ND POST TO LAST ON THIS PAGE

Shows POV’s of every class in the group on alb


TheEvilreaper
02.02.2012, 02:40 AM
DAOC for the most part got rid of your gear is better than mine so I win in PVP. It was not and still is not hard to get your character templated with a set of weapons/armor.

There was a grind for Realm Ranks in which you got some increase to your character like higher crit chance or more Hit points and also some ablities on cooldowns. Realm Ranks played a roll in PVP very much so and Usually someone 3 or 4 Realm Ranks higher you could not kill or it took some work. Realm Ranks where a grind mind you though.

But more than anything the PVP actually meant something. You had battlegrounds you did not have to queue for that had a central keep to try to control that was always in conflict 24/7 as long as people where in it.

You had Realm bonuses or Side bonuses to all the characters for Fighting and taking certain keeps in Open World PVP. DAOC did PVP right bottom line.


Hypernetic
02.02.2012, 02:45 AM
DAOC for the most part got rid of your gear is better than mine so I win in PVP. It was not and still is not hard to get your character templated with a set of weapons/armor.

There was a grind for Realm Ranks in which you got some increase to your character like higher crit chance or more Hit points and also some ablities on cooldowns. Realm Ranks played a roll in PVP very much so and Usually someone 3 or 4 Realm Ranks higher you could not kill or it took some work. Realm Ranks where a grind mind you though.

But more than anything the PVP actually meant something. You had battlegrounds you did not have to queue for that had a central keep to try to control that was always in conflict 24/7 as long as people where in it.

You had Realm bonuses or Side bonuses to all the characters for Fighting and taking certain keeps in Open World PVP. DAOC did PVP right bottom line.

All I hear is "more time played = some sort of advantage" which is pretty much the same in any mmo. So it wasn’t gear that gave you an advantage in DAoC, it was realm rank? What is the difference?


TheEvilreaper
02.02.2012, 02:52 AM
All I hear is "more time played = some sort of advantage" which is pretty much the same in any mmo. So it wasn’t gear that gave you an advantage in DAoC, it was realm rank? What is the difference?

It was an actual grind to achieve a realm rank advantage kinda like the time people have put into EVE online. Also Realm Ranks gave you stats or bonuses it did not make your character always win, stats kinda like Datacrons and bonuses kinda like stims or adrenals if they are down for cooldown timers which are long than most any of the ones in the game right now it was still a pretty even match.

Ever game will always have certain classes that kill other ones with ease, but sometimes and very true in DAOC you could compenstate for that with skill to a degree.

Heck even at 49 right now if a level 10-15 gets on me I /laugh and roll him thats not fun to be honest so I usually end up running into a group of 2-4 and see what I can do test my limits and try to get better for the 50 brackets.


TwitchFE
02.02.2012, 02:53 AM
I miss the actual overall usefulness of crafting in MMO’s to date.

JobaFat
02.02.2012, 02:57 AM
i miss the actual overall usefulness of crafting in mmo’s to date.

omg this, and I do have Biochem and had slicing when it was easy profits.


ScootyPuffSenior
02.02.2012, 03:13 AM
I remember that all too well. 90% of the time in a one on one "fight" it was "stun-nuke-nuke-nuke-dead". I’ve never seen such insane CC as there was in that game.

Group(s) vs group(s) PvP is a balancing act between CC power and numbers determining the outcome. You can toss in class imbalances and gear disparity, but as long as those latter two are reconciled (and I think everyone agrees they should be in a good PvP game), then the result is either numbers or CC. For me, while I disliked being CC’d, having the potential of winning despite being pretty outnumbered dwarfed my CC annoyances.


il-jumper
02.02.2012, 03:16 AM
Imma let you finish, but GW has the most skill based and balanced PVP in any MMO

anasa
02.02.2012, 03:19 AM
This is what made DAoC great too!_!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIRY8VantWw

8 skilled players crushing the clueless zerg. Only in DAoC. Nostalgia -_-


Safgril
02.02.2012, 03:43 AM
ick… GW?

no way… horrible game.

Didnt like GW1 and no way would give GW2 a shot.

the best game that actually TOOK REAL SKILL TO PLAY was and still is….

ASHERON’S CALL

about DAOC… well you can love the game like all the fanboys or you can take a more of an Outside the box looking in approach like me.

I liked DAOC for what it was.. .but it was by far NOT perfect like so many fanboys claim

imbalanced classes… stealth was king in that game… till toa came out

Mythic could just not balance the classes.. .they couldnt do it in DAOC and couldnt do it in Warhammer.

there was always OVERPOWERing classes. There was a saying.. if you play a mythic game… play the worst possible class… it will become the most overpowered later… there were nerfbat extroadinaires.

what you get in DAOC is what we call ELITISM.. it was really bad in DAOC…in order to make some 8 man teams.. there were requirements…

its funny some mention it was friendly and helpful etc. that was the case before WOW came out. And the masses started entering into the genre. Attitudes changed from then on. Rudeness and swearing became more accepted.

in early years of AC, EQ, DAOC… people frowned on swearing in the open channel. And poeple would literally tear you a new one if you swore. helping each other was standard for MMOs… nowadays if you ask a question you will be called noob.. ridiculed for not knowing…

Yeah most games today require gear as the progression in PVP… however DAOC had its own.. it was REALM RANKS… same damn thing.. a RR10.. now its RR13… can easily beat a RR1… 1v1…

a rank 1 just doesnt have the proper tools for PVP like purge which you buy when you rank up…

however, this is Mythics downfall… a new person coming into the game and starting at 50 goes out gets geared up.. thinks cool im competitive to play…

then they wiped fast… they cancel account… this was typical…

maintaining a solid number in daoc’s life was hard for them… they had a hard time getting new subs after you had a LOT of guilds that were "ELITE" feeding on the newcomers into the frontiers…

cant tell you how much RAGE you heard in chat over this. But of course, peoples memories tend to fade as years go by.

to me the best game ever that had it all… GOOD PVP and all the other bells and whistles was PRE CU SWG…

this game had its own problems but it tailored to the hardcore pvpers and the casual players and roleplayers.

oh and one last thing about DAOC.. there was NO OPEN WORLD PVP.. it was all instanced…

you entered into a battleground by loading in.. also went into the frontiers loading in… it was a separate area of the world… your homeland was SAFE… always…

I specifically loved the later attitude of taking and defending keeps of oh midgard is taking a keep… blah who cares… we will get it back when they all log off…

this was another problem… wasnt fun taking empty keeps after awhile… especially if your realm was dominating the other 2… of course this is the worst case scenario…

P.S. oh and daoc only has 1 server… yeah its barely running with only the RR13s running around or trying to level up another …

warhammer about the same.. what are they down to? 2 or 3 servers? exactly why mythic was dissolved…


Zomgasm
02.06.2012, 05:07 PM
Positioning mattered. Casters/Healers couldnt cast at ALL if something hit them, they would get interrupted. I remember the first day of WoW going omg I can cast while people are hitting me!!!!

Haha, I laughed so hard when I saw this in the game. People have no idea what it’s like having to play a caster in DAoC. (Coming from a tri-spec cabby)

WoW arena was a cakewalk after all my experience in DAoC. Merc Glad and Multi-Glad, anything after season 4 was garbage too.

Needless to say, I reactivated my account and I’ve been playing for the last week and having a blast.


StealthStalker
02.06.2012, 05:15 PM
I don’t know that I’ve ever claimed DAOC was more skillful in any regard, it was just more fun.

I didn’t grind my RvR ranks, they just came as I killed people. I could do that in keep defenses, zerg vs zerg relic fights, roaming 8v8, lowbie persistent BG’s, or soloing on any character I had for some sweet 1v1 or 1vX encounters.

My RR’s eventually let me do one or more things much more effectively, but until then I knew I had to work with others or use my other advantages (skill, terrain, whatever) to their fullest else I’d be defeated.

I never once said, "Man, I need one more win for my daily".


Drivex
02.06.2012, 05:38 PM
You know what made DAoC more fun?

1- You didnt have to search for gear, once 50 you could get 1 person to set you up in crafted / bought gear and you could pvp and win.

2- It was more based on skill in the fact you didnt have to zerg you could solo and still be effective

3- there was no arenas and rating, just a Rank that gave you more points to use in another tree for pvp purposes.

4- You actually could have 1 v 1 fights and enjoy it.

5- There was a point to holding the different castles in the open world pvp, or the relics ect. What is the point of Ilum seriously?

Ya it had flaws, mostly from morons hacking/cheating. However the game itself was great. I personally wish there was a game with DAoC pvp and WoW pve … that would be a game


Kolbenito
02.06.2012, 05:43 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?

No.

Since the word "skill" is used to mean almost anything on these forums I will elaborate. It is an archaic MMO with an absurd number of classes, overpowered CC, overpowered burst and large group battles. Skill is unlikely to have anything to do with anything that happened in DAoC PVP, I don’t doubt that it was fun though.


ARMofGod
02.06.2012, 05:57 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?

Well first and foremost, DAOC wasn’t programmed and designed by monkeys like swtor. If you hit a button the spell goes off. If you turn to the left and click a player you target that player. No ifs ands or buts.

Now imagine a class that can kill you in 4 hits(swing speed <1s), but a fight with them lasting ten minutes. Imagine a group of 8 that could tear apart 50 castle defenders, but that were owned by a group of 5 in open terrain. Daoc was more skilled based because there was a counter to everything and tons of unique ideas rolled into a STABLE well functioning game. When you were CC’d in DAOC you knew what hit you (**** how do you make a pvp game without a combat log swtor?) and you knew exactly how long you would be immune to another cc based on that. Everything was thought out and timed if you wanted to win, from casting spells to sprinting to purging cc to using abilities. There was no "just spam tracer missle", because the second anything sneezed on a caster he was interupted. His ranged damage came at the price of having to avoid interupts. Melee didn’t just use an ability. They used an ability, and also qued up an alternate attack if the first one failed. You based your melee attacks on whether you blocked, you evaded, your target blocked/evaded, or what angle you were hitting your target from. You didnt just spam buttons, you watched what your enemy was doing to properly respond. In DAOC i had 5 swords ready at all times so that I could pull out the one that would be resisted the least by my enemies armor type. All these little nuances dont exist in this game. The ONLY thing this game has on DAOC is the idea of warzones(which is just taken from warhammer). But DAOC actually had end game PVP content, so until the pops dropped you didnt need warzones.

ps: FU bioware for making this game so poorly.


ARMofGod
02.06.2012, 06:02 PM
Good topic. Lets get some daoc fanboys in here to respond though..
Was there any rankng system?
Also i have read that pve gear was better for pvp than pvp gear. Is this true?

There was no PVP gear. Players crafted their armor, and everything that went into it. Then they dyed it all the colors they wanted. There was a need to do some long PVE raids to start off, but generally(for a veteran player) level 1-50 grind was 3 days, and gear grind/realm rank grind was 2-3 weeks to be good enough to fight with everyone else.


Zarthorn
02.06.2012, 06:07 PM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

CC that last for 30 seconds, of which you gain a RR earned CC breaker, which made you immune to mezz for 2 minutes

Stun that lasted a max of 8 sec (from slam) again, immunity was 2 minutes.

Focus casting allowed you to cast one uninteruptable to gain distance, also if you were good at your class you could cast in between attacks to avoid interuption.

Archers could only kill in 3 hits out of stealth, which they had to wait a full 10 seconds out of combat to restealth, getting caught = death.

Maphack was for baddies that couldn’t play properly, many of them got banned.

The reason DaoC was so skill based is a group of 8 people could take down a zerg if they were good at coordinating and teamplay.


Rallic
02.06.2012, 06:28 PM
Very few games I’d call grate, DAoC is one of them.
UO as it was my first. And shadow bane for the massive city siges.

For me if I could make a game it would be a mix of all three. Leaving all the bugs they had out. As each if them held a lot of bugs.

Not as many as swg , but bugs.

The timed PvP of DAoC , not braking the cc with aoe spells and such. The open feel of UO, the siges of shadow bane. And just to put the icing on it the crafting of swg.

Is say if DAoC was remade with a updated gfx and new GUI , they could do rerelease and do well.


ARMofGod
02.06.2012, 06:35 PM
Very few games I’d call grate, DAoC is one of them.
UO as it was my first. And shadow bane for the massive city siges.

For me if I could make a game it would be a mix of all three. Leaving all the bugs they had out. As each if them held a lot of bugs.

Not as many as swg , but bugs.

The timed PvP of DAoC , not braking the cc with aoe spells and such. The open feel of UO, the siges of shadow bane. And just to put the icing on it the crafting of swg.

Is say if DAoC was remade with a updated gfx and new GUI , they could do rerelease and do well.

Really? I loved DAOC crafting. I guess mostly because it actually made useful things that I cared about.


Aroidan
02.06.2012, 06:44 PM
Whoever listed that 8 man composition had it slightly wrong… Almost all 8 man alb groups had a Minstrel in it for speed and Added CC and other support abilities.

The reason DAoC was more skill based was because at the end of the day the gear and RRs only really gave a class more utility in a group. A RR0 could still beat a RR10 the reason it was less likely for a RR10 to beat a RR0 was because of a thing called Experience. Regardless how bad of a player you were if you hit RR10 you had learned some basic tactics for how to handle what your class was weak against and strong against and good spots to launch an ambush etc.

If I encountered an archer class 1 vs 1 I could beat them by properly using /face /stick commands and getting into melee. If they were good they might still be able to drop me before I got into melee but once I did they were screwed. This lead to a lot of stealth bating as well. 2 or 3 archers would get together to hold the mile gates. So a healer and a tank would get together and wait for them to pop out of cover and take a shot. If the healer was decent I could protect them while charging down the stealther or making them run and the healer could cast a quick stun on them letting me close the gap. If the other archer came out of stealth to try and take us out it became a game of does the healer stay close enough for guard or not etc. There was also some luck involved like, would my heal procs go off and so on.

The reason I stopped playing was 2 fold. The game was AMAZING pre ToA after that artifacts and Master Levels required massive groups of 40+ to complete and some of the raids took 8 or more hours to complete. This was simply not fun anymore and you needed the master levels to compete in RvR. On top of that Artifact leveling was a pain and not fun. Also New Frontiers was not good. Granted I like the look of the new keeps and the upgrading of them but I prefered the old map layouts and keep positions and mile gates etc. I also hated all the towers. Suddenly there was way too much to keep track of and do in RvR.

All this being said the thing that really screwed PvP and has made it about a gear progression was the advent of Bind on Pickup. Get rid of this mechanic and allow the top tier raid gear to be sold means you can get rid of the stupid expertise stat which means that now a PvPer can get the gear he needs by either buying it or raiding for it.


CommandoPower
02.06.2012, 06:45 PM
it isn’t.
CC that lasts for 30 seconds.

And longer. But this was only mezz type abilities that broke on damage. You also had classes that could free you and purge (self CC break). Granted it sucked when you got caught with your pants down and no way out but to watch your friends die, but that didn’t happen much in my experience.

No CC breaks.

Everyone could get purge, self CC release vs everything. Which then gave you immunity = to 3 times the max duration of that CC. Other classes could unmezz you. Tanks got vastly reduced times on CC’s, tanks got patched to be able to do a CC breaking "roar".

Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.

Yup, it meant that you could shut down caster damage mostly. But to be fair casters did far and way more damage than any other class. They blew people up HARD. Being able to stop them, mostly, was the only thing that kept them from being completely and totally overpowered.

Even then you could get RA’s that would give you 2 uninterruptible faster casts instead of 1, and another that made you completely uninterpretable for X seconds…but gave you a moderate damage % penalty.

Permanent stun.

The horrible stun from that game was 9 seconds max. The casted (Ranged) stuns had their duration reduced by your resistances so they were in reality 6 seconds or so. Melee stuns lasted the full 9 but required a shield and high investment into shields or certain conditions to pull off.

You could purge this stun.

After you got stunned you gained immunity to stun for 3 times the duration of the original stun and could not be stunned again WHILE stunned to bypass this. That’s 27 seconds of immunity.

Currently in SWTOR I regularly get chain stunned. The max duration is theoretically 8 seconds, 1 second shy of your DAOC stun. However the immunity time is vastly shorter and resolve is broken, thus I have been stunned in excess of 15 seconds straight here before (longer with very short breaks of not being stunned), which never happened in DAOC.

Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Simply did not happen past very early on in the games life unless the caster thought they could war 20 levels old gear lol.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

This is something that only happened late in the games life and they started banning people for it when they figured out how to sniff it out.

BUFFBOTS. Players basically need 2 accounts just so they can have twice the stats than the rest. Even if gear was easy to get, paying for another account gives a big advantage.

Buff bots didn’t become commonplace until far later, and then both sides had them and everyone was buffed.

I agree that they were lame and buffing classes needed redesign, but you do not understand the game at all. The people screwed by buff bots were those with self buffs. They were intended to have advantages over people that they did not get.

I remember that all too well. 90% of the time in a one on one "fight" it was "stun-nuke-nuke-nuke-dead". I’ve never seen such insane CC as there was in that game.

You gotta be kidding me, it happens all the time here lol. Sometimes with 1 person other times with 2. We just now got past operatives and scoundrels doing that to EVERYONE. CC is far more plentiful in SWTOR than it was in DAOC with lesser counters and immunities.


FourTwent
02.06.2012, 06:47 PM
Buying new abilities w/ RP’s (realm points) was a second fun way to spec your character, and always gave something to look forward to.

so instead of having gear advantage. you had flat out ability advantage.

yea, that sounds like ‘pure skill’ /sarcasm


Rallic
02.06.2012, 06:47 PM
Really? I loved DAOC crafting. I guess mostly because it actually made useful things that I cared about.

Yes but the swg crafting took that another step in how and what you made.
DAoC has Good crafting but swg was one of the all time best. I can’t think of any that had what it did for crafting.


Vales
02.06.2012, 06:48 PM
I seriously disliked DaoC and no it did not take more skill than other MMOs.
In fact it allowed for more abuse than many others.
Buff bots come to mind.
Eternal CC chains
Interupts did not just push back casts but made them uncastable
Class balance was the worst in history of an MMO

DaoC is probably the most overhyped game after WoW imho.


Rallic
02.06.2012, 06:59 PM
I seriously disliked DaoC and no it did not take more skill than other MMOs.
In fact it allowed for more abuse than many others.
Buff bots come to mind.
Eternal CC chains
Interupts did not just push back casts but made them uncastable
Class balance was the worst in history of an MMO

DaoC is probably the most overhyped game after WoW imho.

Lol you didt play DAoC long it would seam as you know all most nothing about it.
I never once had a bufbot. Still don’t as I still play from time to time..

Cc was and is easy to get around allways was. And took players not braking it.
Interupts was and is one of the best things about casters , mental and eldrich main toons for me.
Balance class vs class I have to give you that one as there is allways a fotm op class. But that’s The same in all games.
For me its not about class vs class its a realm vs realm ie why it don’t mater that archers or any other class are op for a time . The nerf bat rolls from class to class in a never ending game of qq.


CommandoPower
02.06.2012, 07:11 PM
I liked DAOC for what it was.. .but it was by far NOT perfect like so many fanboys claim

We don’t think it’s perfect. Most of us had gripes with it. It’s just simply the BEST PVP game we’ve played.

imbalanced classes… stealth was king in that game… till toa came out

I hated stealthers until I realized that they were almost soley responsible for people grouping up automatically because running around solo meant stealther death. After that? I hated them lol. But I appreciated that they caused the game to be naturally team based with few rambo type players.

Overall stealthers were a phenomenal asset to DAOC simply because they made people automatically group up and fight in groups.

Mythic could just not balance the classes.. .they couldnt do it in DAOC and couldnt do it in Warhammer.

The irony is that I have not seen better balancing even in games with a fraction of the classes, 2 factions, and mirrored classes.

I’m not saying class balance was perfect by any means. Simply no worse than future games with 10 times more variety lol.

what you get in DAOC is what we call ELITISM.. it was really bad in DAOC…in order to make some 8 man teams.. there were requirements…

Which is why I zerg surfed or pugged. Not everyone was elitist. In fact it was mainly certain groups rather than most people. Your gonna say something like blah blah blah would lose to X. My response is going to be I HAD A BLAST :).

its funny some mention it was friendly and helpful etc. that was the case before WOW came out. And the masses started entering into the genre. Attitudes changed from then on. Rudeness and swearing became more accepted.

in early years of AC, EQ, DAOC… people frowned on swearing in the open channel. And poeple would literally tear you a new one if you swore. helping each other was standard for MMOs… nowadays if you ask a question you will be called noob.. ridiculed for not knowing…

I’ll agree with you there, though some games like City of Heros remain mostly friendly.

Yeah most games today require gear as the progression in PVP… however DAOC had its own.. it was REALM RANKS… same damn thing.. a RR10.. now its RR13… can easily beat a RR1… 1v1…

Thing is though, it took A LOT of time to get that high. Like ridiculous amounts of time AND you still didn’t have the same kind of difference you do with fresh 50’s and Battlemasters. They could be alot more easily killed than battlemasters unless they threw all those points into defense, in which case their offense wasn’t being raised near as much.

RA’s were still about choices and tradeoffs, not about an all around "your **** uber now".

a rank 1 just doesnt have the proper tools for PVP like purge which you buy when you rank up…

however, this is Mythics downfall… a new person coming into the game and starting at 50 goes out gets geared up.. thinks cool im competitive to play…

then they wiped fast… they cancel account… this was typical…

That pretty much stopped when they added battlegrounds. You got geared via PVP, you got PVP experience, and you gained Realm Ranks all while leveling in an extremely fun PVP battleground. Still siege based, still open world, still all the fun of DAOC end game PVP, in a small focused package.

maintaining a solid number in daoc’s life was hard for them… they had a hard time getting new subs after you had a LOT of guilds that were "ELITE" feeding on the newcomers into the frontiers…

cant tell you how much RAGE you heard in chat over this. But of course, peoples memories tend to fade as years go by.

Nah it was pretty much TOA. Forcing people to PVE in a primarily PVP game to be competitive at PVP killed it.

oh and one last thing about DAOC.. there was NO OPEN WORLD PVP.. it was all instanced…

you entered into a battleground by loading in.. also went into the frontiers loading in… it was a separate area of the world… your homeland was SAFE… always…

I think your idea of instanced and open world is kind of flawed. Unless an area as big as your homeland with no player cap counts as an instance?

I specifically loved the later attitude of taking and defending keeps of oh midgard is taking a keep… blah who cares… we will get it back when they all log off…

this was another problem… wasnt fun taking empty keeps after awhile… especially if your realm was dominating the other 2… of course this is the worst case scenario…

That’s the funny thing. Nobody understands this in games today. We all cared. You did not want those dirty hibs, albs, mids taking your keep. That was YOUR keep. People called into work to stop relic raids lol. This is what is referred to commonly as REALM PRIDE. You cared about your realm and you honestly wanted to help it for no better reason than because it was your realm.

Me and many others spent many late nights preventing those said keep takes and taking it back if they took ti while we were gone. Even against superior numbers. Because that was our keep dang it and YOU CAN’T HAVE IT!!.

P.S. oh and daoc only has 1 server… yeah its barely running with only the RR13s running around or trying to level up another …

Considering it’s a PVP game and the age of it that’s honestly fairly impressive.

warhammer about the same.. what are they down to? 2 or 3 servers? exactly why mythic was dissolved…

Warhammer got hosed by EA and the catering to the WOW fan base. Straight up. It also only had a fraction of the Mythic staff. Alot of them left to go to other companies and if EA tried to hire me, so would I. I wouldn’t work for them even if they offered me $10 an hour more. I like my soul tyvm.


TehMerc
02.06.2012, 07:14 PM
Far too much nostalgia going on in here for my liking ๐Ÿ˜ก

It wasn’t skill based, it was class based. Stack the right classes or be punished was the name of the game.

No thanks. Do want Siege PvP however, best fun I’ve had in a long time.


ChasteDaley
02.06.2012, 07:23 PM
I remember DAoC fondly. I was a Minstrel and loved the utility I brought to a group.

Speed and …um….what was that ability…it made your whole group move fast and were immune to CC for like 10s.

I just remember that requiring skill to use before the mez or for the other team to fake you into using it so they could CC you after.

It wasn’t a perfect game but I did love that I felt like I could make a good group better.

I feel that a little in SWTOR. I might feel it more with more open PvP.


thaxtl
02.06.2012, 07:30 PM
That ability was called SoS.

Rallic
02.06.2012, 07:36 PM
Far too much nostalgia going on in here for my liking ๐Ÿ˜ก

It wasn’t skill based, it was class based. Stack the right classes or be punished was the name of the game.

No thanks. Do want Siege PvP however, best fun I’ve had in a long time.

Yes and no to this . In 8m vs 8m you needed the right set up , but a pug group of good players beat hands down a bad group that didt know how to play , even if they had the "right" set up.

I pugged a lot but ran in a good premade to. I think it took more skill then any thing we have now.
I did so hate the toa, stopped playing over it. Came back with the classic server , and left after they closed it down.

Now I re-up from time to time just for fun.

I think back to the days of mmg to hmg running and yes it got boring. But there was so much more then that. Keep raids being the most fun I had in DAoC . Shadowbanes city banes being bigger so funner.


Candykissesxoxo
02.06.2012, 08:03 PM
I don’t believe DAoC was any better than any other game out there today. It’s all about the times imo. When it first came out things were different..mmo’s in general were fairly new and giving little to no rewards didn’t matter because it was good enough to just go out and do it and have fun. Times have changed..mmo’s have changed and today it takes a bit more to satisfy the average mmo vet.

DAoC had it’s issues just like any other game out there. More skill? I laugh when I see people saying that. Having gear on an equal lvl and easier to aquire? Maybe easier to aquire but when top geared people face top geared people in any game, if the balance is decent, is skill not measurable? "well what about having fotm classes being OP?..that doesn’t take skill.."

Guess what..In top end arena in wow if a class was OP every f’ing team had one..good players adapted. So when you’re facing mirror team after mirror team with the same comps having equal gear, does that not take skill to get the W?

People crying about gear disadvantage usually means they didn’t make it to the top end. Competing in the top end takes skill in any game. DAoC had advantages that gave people the edge as well. Unfortunetly TOR has no competative pvp or way to rank anyone’s "skill"


Raudd
02.06.2012, 08:14 PM
What made Daoc the best RvR ( realm vs realm) game until now?
Simple:
RvR gave you sense of accomplishment. There were 3 realms, all had they own rvr zone connected to each other. All realms had 2 relic (iirc) kept in there keeps. This relic keeps had relic guardians ( very very hard to beat ) "sent" from the other keeps. If you took those other keeps, the guardians depopped, made it easier to take the relics.

If you controlled other realms relic( which meant take it, got it back to your keeps ) you got 10-20% extra damage for melee/magic in rvr but also pve too.

Relics raids were epic in scale. You needed to take 5-6 keeps to depop the guardians, but of course the defending realm went to defend those keeps, you had huge fight out of it. You used battering rams to break walls, infiltrators climbed up on the walls to gank peoples inside, you had trebutchets (sp) to damage peoples inside. You needed logistic to resupply ammo for those.

After you took those keeps you had to defend them because if the defending realm took ’em back, the guardians at the relic keeps repopped.

Also lets not forget about the third realm, hitting the attackers and the defenders alike.
A relics raid ( because of this "guardian keeps") took 100+ peoples coordinated flawlessly if the defenders came out.

Let me tell you about a raid which made me rvr oriented ( i was a giant pve guy b4):
It took 28 hours. Literally. Groups roaming all over the rvr lands taking/retaking keeps. Joined a group for several hours , went to work. Came home after work, logged on and got the message that the raid still going on , so joined a group to take keeps again for several hours. Went to sleep. Woke up, logged on and saw the raid still going on ( peoples logged off/logged on all the time , kept the raid going )so i joined a group on the final attack on the relic keep. We took the relic and started to head back to our territory. We got hit by a defending group, few groups from the third realm ( they knew if the kill us they will have the relic we worked 28 or so hours for) ,but few of our groups joined us too to bodyguard us. Finally made it back to our keeps , and felt like heroes. Felt like we did something great, something awesome .

It was almost 10 years ago, and i still get goosebumps if i think about it.

PS: Sorry for the rusty English, not my first language


Rallic
02.06.2012, 08:42 PM
I don’t believe DAoC was any better than any other game out there today. It’s all about the times imo. When it first came out things were different..mmo’s in general were fairly new and giving little to no rewards didn’t matter because it was good enough to just go out and do it and have fun. Times have changed..mmo’s have changed and today it takes a bit more to satisfy the average mmo vet.

DAoC had it’s issues just like any other game out there. More skill? I laugh when I see people saying that. Having gear on an equal lvl and easier to aquire? Maybe easier to aquire but when top geared people face top geared people in any game, if the balance is decent, is skill not measurable? "well what about having fotm classes being OP?..that doesn’t take skill.."

Guess what..In top end arena in wow if a class was OP every f’ing team had one..good players adapted. So when you’re facing mirror team after mirror team with the same comps having equal gear, does that not take skill to get the W?

People crying about gear disadvantage usually means they didn’t make it to the top end. Competing in the top end takes skill in any game. DAoC had advantages that gave people the edge as well. Unfortunetly TOR has no competative pvp or way to rank anyone’s "skill"

I lol any time some one tryst to use arena is a PvP sentence. That is in the most lose since of the word PvP but its the *** end of PvP .

Look.arena is set up, theres nothing to be ready for , both teams know what and when, and where..that is not PvP to me. It’s WWF with eping nerds trying to be etuff . Wow PvP and SWTOR PvP are a slap in the face as is to all PvP

Yes it had bugs , iv yet to play any MMO ever with out them. It’s the way the pvp played the levels of classes and skills used . Called targets with 100 people not braking cc all working together.

Fotm classes came later in DAoC as for a long time it took a very long time to level up. not so much now, and like all mmos fotm are there. But in a game that PvP is 8man to 100man raids a few fotm mixed in don’t mater a lot.

DAoC would be a top MMO of it had todays gfx. Hands down they could release the game with nothing more then a xpac for the GUI and gfx and do good.

And for me its not about is DAoC better then SWTOR or not as its apples and Oranges. It’s could SWTOR give us a DAoC sort of world PvP with a 3rd realm using the same classes just another faction like huts or separatists. With space station and world takes.

I think they can and should but that’s me and the PvP/RvR I like.
I can’t stand arenas I think they are a bad joke on pvp. But randomly world PvP with mass server wars I love.

Ps: using my droid to post , to much truble to go back and fix all the words it changes, ,,,, should add that to my Sig lol.


Rallic
02.06.2012, 09:10 PM
I don’t believe DAoC was any better than any other game out there today. It’s all about the times imo. When it first came out things were different..mmo’s in general were fairly new and giving little to no rewards didn’t matter because it was good enough to just go out and do it and have fun. Times have changed..mmo’s have changed and today it takes a bit more to satisfy the average mmo vet.

DAoC had it’s issues just like any other game out there. More skill? I laugh when I see people saying that. Having gear on an equal lvl and easier to aquire? Maybe easier to aquire but when top geared people face top geared people in any game, if the balance is decent, is skill not measurable? "well what about having fotm classes being OP?..that doesn’t take skill.."

Guess what..In top end arena in wow if a class was OP every f’ing team had one..good players adapted. So when you’re facing mirror team after mirror team with the same comps having equal gear, does that not take skill to get the W?

People crying about gear disadvantage usually means they didn’t make it to the top end. Competing in the top end takes skill in any game. DAoC had advantages that gave people the edge as well. Unfortunetly TOR has no competative pvp or way to rank anyone’s "skill"

I lol any time some one tryst to use arena is a PvP sentence. That is in the most lose since of the word PvP but its the *** end of PvP .

Look.arena is set up, theres nothing to be ready for , both teams know what and when, and where..that is not PvP to me. It’s WWF with eping nerds trying to be etuff . Wow PvP and SWTOR PvP are a slap in the face as is to all PvP

Yes it had bugs , iv yet to play any MMO ever with out them. It’s the way the pvp played the levels of classes and skills used . Called targets with 100 people not braking cc all working together.

Fotm classes came later in DAoC as for a long time it took a very long time to level up. not so much now, and like all mmos fotm are there. But in a game that PvP is 8man to 100man raids a few fotm mixed in don’t mater a lot.

DAoC would be a top MMO of it had todays gfx. Hands down they could release the game with nothing more then a xpac for the GUI and gfx and do good.

And for me its not about is DAoC better then SWTOR or not as its apples and Oranges. It’s could SWTOR give us a DAoC sort of world PvP with a 3rd realm using the same classes just another faction like huts or separatists. With space station and world takes.

I think they can and should but that’s me and the PvP/RvR I like.
I can’t stand arenas I think they are a bad joke on pvp. But randomly world PvP with mass server wars I love.


CommandoPower
02.06.2012, 10:47 PM
I lol any time some one tryst to use arena is a PvP sentence. That is in the most lose since of the word PvP but its the *** end of PvP .

Look.arena is set up, theres nothing to be ready for , both teams know what and when, and where..that is not PvP to me. It’s WWF with eping nerds trying to be etuff . Wow PvP and SWTOR PvP are a slap in the face as is to all PvP

Yes it had bugs , iv yet to play any MMO ever with out them. It’s the way the pvp played the levels of classes and skills used . Called targets with 100 people not braking cc all working together.

Fotm classes came later in DAoC as for a long time it took a very long time to level up. not so much now, and like all mmos fotm are there. But in a game that PvP is 8man to 100man raids a few fotm mixed in don’t mater a lot.

DAoC would be a top MMO of it had todays gfx. Hands down they could release the game with nothing more then a xpac for the GUI and gfx and do good.

And for me its not about is DAoC better then SWTOR or not as its apples and Oranges. It’s could SWTOR give us a DAoC sort of world PvP with a 3rd realm using the same classes just another faction like huts or separatists. With space station and world takes.

I think they can and should but that’s me and the PvP/RvR I like.
I can’t stand arenas I think they are a bad joke on pvp. But randomly world PvP with mass server wars I love.

Ps: using my droid to post , to much truble to go back and fix all the words it changes, ,,,, should add that to my Sig lol.

She makes a good point. Arena teams you pretty much have your battle plans and likely opposition down pat. Memorized rotations and what you need to do. Your in a very very controlled setting. It’s a completely different type of gameplay from dynamic open world PVP and I find a less challenging one because you have less variables.

I’ve seen alot of people who did well in arenas and the like FAIL HORRIBLY at open world PVP. Lack of awareness, inability to adapt to changing situations, unable to cope with battle plan falling apart, can’t rely on tried and true methods all the time, etc.

It’s a different world. I was a zerg surger and PUG player. I thrived in chaos. It was my job to try and do the most effective thing for me to do at any given time. This might have been taking out DPS, taking out a healer, or guarding my own people. Maybe I was using my AOE to mass interrupt, maybe I was using my pets to keep one caster interrupted, casting on another, and occasionally casting on a 3rd. I kept in mind to root not just for myself, but for others too. Maybe we had numbers, maybe we were down 2:1, maybe both other realms had us sandwiched and I was trying to lead them into each other.

I had to adjust on the fly no matter what insanity happened. As it so happens I can do raids, I can do arena, I can do alot of things. But nothing beats the ever changing living animal that is open world PVP when it comes to challenging you with new and unexpected situations on a constant basis.

It’s simply a day and night difference, and skill requirement, for open world PVP. Requires more skills AND higher levels of the same skills you use for arena, only without the I do Y then X then Z mentality. Because that’ll just get you killed.


Sorrum
02.06.2012, 10:49 PM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

What are you talking about? Have you ever played the game ?

I swear.. have you ever even seen a video of it ?


LightAvalon
02.06.2012, 11:10 PM
CC that lasts for 30 seconds.

Yeah mez can last a really long time. That’s why your group has to spread out so they are not ALL mezzed. Plus you could spec for purge to get out of it anyway and at least it had diminishing returns

No CC breaks.
Purge. Cleanse etc.

Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Loved this system. Highly encouraged teamwork. If I was a caster and I was getting locked down by someone I had to call it out in my group to get an instant peel.

Too lazy to address the rest.

Anyway as for why I loved DAOC pvp.

Realm points. – Loved going out to fight and continually improve my character. Every time I killed people I’d get points I could spend to get more abilities or skills. Mythic also had a leader boards that showed who had the most amount of realm points, who gained the most that week, who gained the most for your class. It was a lot of fun trying to get the most amount of realm points each week.

Death matters. – I’m sure everyone that raided in WoW can relate to this. How long do you think it takes after a boss wipe to get everyone together again to roll on out? That’s kinda how DAOC pvp is. You have your full group and you spend maybe 5-10 minutes depending on how you’re traveling to the fight location. Then you roam around and find action. If you die you do not re spawn 10 feet away. Nope you go back to your home base and you have to make your way back. Death matters.

PVP is self sustaining. – Once you get your best gear you’re done. You can pvp to your hearts content and will not have to do anymore pve until they expansion you QQ. You even get a ton of money from pvp.

Community/Respect – This is kind of a lost art. Nowadays everyone is "red it’s dead". DAOC had a sense of community where you continued to fight the same people from your server or fought along with the same people. If you saw someone having a 1v1 you’d sit back and let them finish it. If you saw a group vs another group, you’d wait until they were done.

Handling zergs – In DAOC you could actually kill zergs with a full group. This is mostly due to the fact that zergs would cluster on top of each other and be easy AE Mez targets. Also zergs would get less realm points depending on how many players were damaging their target.

-EDIT- Forgot to include why it was skill based.

High team coordination – due to the interrupt system this game relied on a ton of group coordination. Virtually every single had a cast time, none of this insta crap (at least not for awhile). Basically anything that hit you would interrupt your cast and you would be unable to cast again for at least 5s. On the flip side though, if you were free to cast for this duration you could do a ton of damage or heals.

What this generally lead to was pvp groups consisting of a few melee, a few casters, and a few healers. Since you cannot cast if you are interrupted you can kind of imagine how hectic that fight is going to be.

Basically any time 2 groups met everyone would spread out because if you were clumped up, you were a target for a huge AE CC. Healers would prekite and get in the back. Casters usually do the same thing. Tanks would charge in but they’d have to make sure not to get over extended. People had to focus down targets to kill them. You would have casters trying to lock down healers, CC other casters, etc etc.


ugig
02.06.2012, 11:16 PM
So what did the pvp revolve around? Group vs group pvp? How big? What was the goal? Control of resources? Was there a way to rank people? How did you gauge how skilled a player was?

Part of the draw was not knowing how skilled the player was, when you attacked you had a very real danger of getting killed, now you could get a general idea by the title they had, but these titles were different based on the realm where an Albion might be a Gryphon Knight at realm rank 5, a midgard might be an Isen Vakken (cant remember the exact ones)

But the rank doesnt mean they are skilled so you went on reputation, and took chances instead of only picking on those with "less skill" or sure things.

The PvP revolved around group vs group or raid vs raid mostly, but you could get into fights 1v1 all the way up to 100’s vs 100’s or any combination of them.

The main goal was control of relics, each realm had 2 relics, one that boosted your realms melee dmg and one that boosted your realms spell dmg and healing, each relic was like 2% and they stacked, but to gain benefits you had to own both your relics first, for example if Albion captured Midgards Spell relic they would recieve a 2% boost to their spellpower, but if they lost their own relic then they would be back to base spellpower. so the main goal was capture of the enemy relics and defense of your own. For this each realm had various castles and lookout towers that could be sieged and taken or destroyed.

I think some people believe DaoC was a more skill based game because of things like casters not being able to cast while being hit (need some skill to position yourself and be aware) and for melee, their attacks were style chains with reactionary style chains that you needed to be aware of what you were hitting and what was hitting you and know what styles would work best in what situations, in short there was less button mashing facerolling and more calculated use of ones skills.


VandredTOR
02.06.2012, 11:34 PM
Let’s see..

– Casters had to know how to use thier stuns, snares, roots, insta-casts, etc to stand a chance against a melee. If they did know how to do this, they could easily blow melee up.

– Melee play was much more interactive. It was all about reactional attacks, positionals and chains/combos. This is how you got the most damage and if you couldn’t pull them off, you were useless. Some of this has existed in other games, but none as much as DAoC. I’m sure this whole idea is "too hard" for the modern gamer.

– If you were good, you could do some awesome stuff. On my sorcerer, I could take on 4-5 guys my level and win if I did everything exactly right. Timed my CC, used my stuns at the right time as compared to my mezzes, used my roots, maintained my distance, etc.

– My sorcerer sounds OP, you say? Sure, against certain classes…but a stealther could drop me in 2 shots.

– Stealthers destroyed casters and bad players in general…but my mercenary ate them up. (see rock/paper/scissors developing here)?

– If your 8-man was a well oiled machine, you could take out 20-30 zerglings.

Were there issues during the life of the game, of course? Were there OPed classes along the way? You bet (oh hai frost axe).

Most of it got worked out…and the game was just fun.


Daffuzz
02.06.2012, 11:38 PM
I recently resubbed DAoC and remember how fun the pvp is there. Basically there sooooo much to do and sooo many ways to tweak your toon out. You have gear that is for resists, dex/con plus all your gear has abilities on it u can use, there is just soo much you have to watch or you’ll get smoked. None of the recent games that have pvp come even close to the amount of information you have to manage to be good at that game.

ugig
02.06.2012, 11:42 PM
Let’s see..

– Casters had to know how to use thier stuns, snares, roots, insta-casts, etc to stand a chance against a melee. If they did know how to do this, they could easily blow melee up.

– Melee play was much more interactive. It was all about reactional attacks, positionals and chains/combos. This is how you got the most damage and if you couldn’t pull them off, you were useless. Some of this has existed in other games, but none as much as DAoC. I’m sure this whole idea is "too hard" for the modern gamer.

– If you were good, you could do some awesome stuff. On my sorcerer, I could take on 4-5 guys my level and win if I did everything exactly right. Timed my CC, used my stuns at the right time as compared to my mezzes, used my roots, maintained my distance, etc.

– My sorcerer sounds OP, you say? Sure, against certain classes…but a stealther could drop me in 2 shots.

– Stealthers destroyed casters and bad players in general…but my mercenary ate them up. (see rock/paper/scissors developing here)?

– If your 8-man was a well oiled machine, you could take out 20-30 zerglings.

Were there issues during the life of the game, of course? Were there OPed classes along the way? You bet (oh hai frost axe).

Most of it got worked out…and the game was just fun.

After ToA and the advent of stacking dex and casting speed, sorcs became nearly unkillable with anything but stealthers, their lifetap when specced right hit like a truck and the cast speed increases plus dex meant it was damn near instant, and for some reason sorcs had a higher hit point pool than normal casters.


cokn
02.06.2012, 11:44 PM
All I hear is "more time played = some sort of advantage" which is pretty much the same in any mmo. So it wasn’t gear that gave you an advantage in DAoC, it was realm rank? What is the difference?

While I will admit, there are a fair amount of Rose Colored glasses being worn, the time investment vs rewards for DAoC were great. At RR1, you could compete but would most likely want to group to achieve your kills. At RR5 you were pretty much as good as you were gonna get as you then had the full abilities of your class. After that, it was all gravy but nothing that gave you a huge advantage.

What I liked most about DAoC (50 Inf, 50 Scout, 50 Necro, 50 Cleric, 40 Buff Bot) was as people have mentioned, when you stepped into RvR with your fully crafted MC set, Spellcrafted and Alchemied up, you knew that what determined the winner was the user behind the keyboard. I would spend hours at the milegate in the afore mentioned stealther wars where we would have Shadowblades, Nightshades, Infs, Hunters, Scouts and Minstrels all vying for control and kills. When it came time to assault a keep, I would sneak my inf and climb the walls to kill the casters nuking our assault party, then jump off and hide to do it again. You REALLY got a feel for you class and your class played as it should have.

I will temper this with what I did not like and what I think ultimately lead to its downfall. PvE was not the best. They had somewhat of an EQ mentality especially with TOA which I attribute the mass decline of the game to. They added elements that had no reason to be in the game. Also, with the advent of WoW, DAoC did not update their control scheme, UI, player movement, etc. This is a painful experience for people not familiar with the game. At its height, DAoC had roughly 250k – 300k Subs worldwide. This is before WoW and the MMO revolution so, those were decent numbers. I have yet to see a game bring what DAoC had to PVP, they just don’t make those games anymore. Any aspiring game devs out there, grab a shoestring budget and remake DAoC with a better control scheme and updated PVE (adjust crafting to so it isn’t such a slog but keep the core philosophy behind DAoC’s crafting) and I promise people will play.


Zintair
02.06.2012, 11:59 PM
Lotta people keep repeating the same thing so I’ll throw some new tidbits out there.

1) 3 realms

The only other game I’ve played that was MMO and PvP based that had 3 opposing factions was Planetside. This system allows DAOC to have semi-balanced servers where one realm might be the dominant one but the other two could at times gang up and take them down. A VERY effective system and if implemented correctly could solve server balance issues (at least in theory/ my opinion)

2) Armor dyes

Yeah it sounds cheesy but damn 8 mans and guilds looked ****** at times with dyed armors.

3) Realm pride

I know some people didn;t have any but many in the game did and when it came to defending your realms keeps lots of people answered the call especially if it was controlled by one of the better guilds on the server. Faction pride goes a long way to retaining subscriptions and adding flavor to a stale genre currently floundering as it tries to figure out where it’s headed.

4) Keeps and Siege design

As a Shadowblade I was able to stealth up walls and attacks casters while they harrassed my realm. If I was talented enough I could stealth up the wall, 2 shot a caster and then use Vanish and Safe Fall without so much as attracting the attention of defenders.

Also Guards and Keep Lords were fun too, and the ability to upgrade them and improve their gear, the keeps walls and doors, the entirety of repairing the doors and crafting siege engines, it was so war-like and I’ve never experienced anything like it.

5) Stealther Wars

I was on Guinevere and I can’t tell you how many times I would roll around with a group of 7 other stealthers and we would encounter an Alb group of Infiltrators and Scouts and just see everyone popping out of stealth trying to get openers off was just so epic. usually only a few made it out alive but the fights were just epic as poisons were going everywhere and you see roll animations as classes got their PA/CD chain off haha epic.

Finale – It took great skill to dominate as an 8 man in DAOC but you could survive as you learned the ropes. Life was difficult for some factions of some realms but if you made friends and had allies you usually were ok.

The thing I enjoyed most about the game was it was released before all the ****tard WOWheads ruined the MMO community forever. Before where a community in an MMO was for the most part respectful and helpful is now a joke.

Gone are the days of this and I for one would rather MMOs stayed in the shadows of the background of the gaming world where we all could enjoy them in peace. But no… business and $$$$ has forever polluted and corrupted the industry like everything else in this world.

And people can hate on Mythic all they want. But they have created two MMOs that allowed the players to have some of the best times of their MMO gaming careers. Sure it was mostly player and community driven but in the end that was their intention.

Did they lack the finer aspects of balance? Yes
Did they have a tendency to turn a nerfbat into a sledgehammer? Yes

Still,

if DAOC 2 came out, not only would I play but would consider even paying up to 20-25$ a month for it. It was THAT much fun.


HileyQuiggley
02.07.2012, 12:06 AM
First off I played DAoC for 10 years. Ive taken brief leaves for other games and always went back. I have 9 accounts, Ive sold another 10 or so and I have RR’s all the way up until 11. I have every class 50 and alot of multiples. So I know the game fairly well.

The reason it is a skilled game is this. The classes are not mirrored, so out of all those classes there are many different setups. Some fights are situational, tower defense, keep defense.

People that complain about the CC or caster interupts have either 1. Not played the game or 2. Where very poor at it. Also yes Radar was used by some of the groups/people around but that wasnt an I win ability. Just because you get mezz off first means absolutely nothing.

Caster interupts, they do the most damage, they have CC, they have abilitys to help keep them at range from aggro. They are wearing cloth and wielding a stick you think your going to stand toe to toe with a dude with swords and chainmail?

CC, yes if you dont have stoicism (base 25% reduc), purge breaks all forms of CC, Determination can get up to 55% reduc with realm abilities. Immune timers are fairly long, you cant just mezz and mezz again right away. Almost everyone has purge also. Purge is the single most important RA accross all classes. Charge is also another RA that alows increased speed and immunity from CC for a short duration.

Template building was my favorite part of the game. Your character was unique, you figured out what PvE armor you needed with different procs on the armor or use abilities and then you filled the holes with crafted gear. You could have 75 base to your primary stats that you use and a extra stat cap of 26 totaling 101, 200 hp with another 200 cap so 400. Also your weaponskill +11 or spell lines.

You can solo, group, or zerg. There are battlegrounds also with keep sieges and tower captures. No time limit only a level and RA cap. New Frontiers is a huge open area, almost to big with an also huge water area. You had to take boats to the other realms territory or if you had a keep captured you could port there. Bridges going over waterways that always had stealth around so you new if you where solo to be carefull.

Also the opening of Darkness Falls is a great experience. Whoever has the most Towers/Keeps has control of DF. A PvE area but also a PvP area until the previous owners where killed out.

You actually got a reward for killing people not gear. That was for PvE and crafters, the realm ability system is the best ive seen. Realm ability doesnt make one person better all the time. When I first took my savage out in RvR I wanted to only solo on him. I hit rr5 in no time taking on multiples at very low RR and I didnt even have purge. Ive lost my fair share of fights also. Im not the best at any class, never spent to much time on a single one.

You have reactionary styles, if you block or parry or evade an attack. You have styles you can use that benefit you. Either a stun or Bleed effect or extra dps. When you solo you have to time things just right. If you stun the other person you should know when his immunity will be back up. Some fights are over very quick, some can last a very long time. Just ask someone who has been a Pally vs Warden or Pally vs Valk or either way you put those.

You only needed a buffbot if you where solo or you didnt have any friends. Now days there are buff merchants who although not as good as a bot, they are almost as good and you will get by just fine.

Another thing on the templates, you would set them up how you play. If you rely on defence and wearing an oponent down you templated heal procs and +shield parry etc. If offense you wanted some good use abilities, proc weapons from ML10 and other weapons you could swap in for different procs. So many types of ways you could figure something up.

If you never played the game you seriously missed out on one of the greatest games that might ever come out. Its not to late to give it a try either, they have added new things and made gear even easier to come by.

When I first started playing if you had 1 plat you where rich beyond belief. Now I have about 3 mithril, which is not a real currency its 3000 plat. I just feel like ive beat the game, not possible but ive done everything it seems, had the crafters, the classes, the fights, all server types. My time to move on. I enjoy SWTOR and hope it gets better, all games have there flaws and DAoC had its fair share. It is a very polished game after 10 years though as it should be.

If you read all this cudos. Its a skill game, a random dude cant just stroll up and own because he has the best gear.


KilllerRock
02.07.2012, 12:07 AM
I didn’t play DAoC as much as my friends did. But that was because the PvE blew chunks, and i was young and leveling was so slow and painfully boring for an ADD teen.

But the PvP was amazing. Zerg vs Zerg in that game just seemed epic, these 50 vs 50 battles of spells going off and melee charging in, and CC/AoE that can hit an infinite amount of targets if they are dumb enough to stand that clustered togeather (yes, you wanted to spread out so 1 ground AoE spell didn’t hit everyone).

Then you had 8 mans kiting or bombing zergs because again, zergs were lazy and put 1 guy on auto follow so everyone was clustered ontop of eachother and allowed themselves to be hit by 3 casters CC or AoE dmg spells and wipe 50 people. Which i loved about the game that a smaller force could wipe a force 3-4x bigger if they played well together and the zerg did not.

The 8vs8 fights were intense, they could be fast matches that ended in 40 seconds or they could last 10 minutes. And ya casters were interupted a **** ton, but casters hit like a truck, if you didn’t make sure to shut certain casters down they would demolish a team if they were allowed to free cast. And melee had directional attacks and chains. Attacks that could only be used from the side or the back or after a block or dodge, attacks that could only be used as a sequel to a previous attack, 3-4 chain attacks.

On top of that, you had solo players running around looking for 1v1 or 2v2 and most the community had what they considered "honor" in that game. That even though an 8 man could simply kill the solo player to get realm points to help lvl up, they usually past them up and let them roam looking for a 1v1 as it was considered "dishonorable" to gank a solo player with your 8 man.

It also had castle sieges and a resource called relics that gave faction wide buffs if you controlled them. It required a huge assault force usually to take these so if you controlled one, you knew you would probably have it for a while and you would try to defend those with your life if you were online when a enemy faction would try to take it from you.

And ya, some classes did just counter other classes. But it made teamwork all that more important. The good 8 mans were well known because they hardly ever died except to the other good 8 mans. And you couldnt just mindlessly zerg good players as with good CC and kiting they might still wipe your group of 40.

Hell im pretty sure you can youtube a video of an 8 man wiping a 100 man zerg because they funneled them up into a tower and nuked the sh*t out of them as they came inside.


Whiteswag
02.07.2012, 12:07 AM
Having played DaoC and being on the best guild in our server and being #1 across all servers for my class (infiltrator) for the time I played (release – TOA), I can tell you exactly what went wrong and right with daoc.

DaoC was by far the best PvP game Ive played yet, and I will tell you why.

THE GOOD

1. Realm pride – Everyone no matter who you were in that game had a sense of pride in the realm. If your realm got attacked, no matter what you were doing you hauled *** to defend it. Lots was at stake. Being attacked and losing your melee and/or magic relics meant your WHOLE realm did less damage and the enemy who took it and capped it in their own fortress gained that damage. Mind you, this wasnt as a walk in the park. It was basically unheard of to take a relic for the first few months of the games release, and even then oh my lord was it hard. You had to capture a number of keeps, kill defenders along the way, break down the walls to their fortress and take the relic, THEN you had to carry it (like flag) a long way away to your portal. From there you then had to run it all the way to your fortress in the middle of fricken nowhere to cap it. All along the way fighting for your life, defending, having gank groups peel off you, and then in some cases having the OTHER realm come in and try to wipe everyone and take the prize for themselves. It was EPIC. People would wake up at 2am in a coordinated realm login to form the raid party to invade the enemy lands and take their relics. Everyone would log on and immediately type /anon so they wouldnt show up on the /who (enemies had spies and would check in on people to see where the forces were)

2. Crafters – these people were very important. Whoever was Legendary Grandmaster was known to everyone on the server. This was an achievement and they made 100% quality items. Quality affected the damage your weapon did, the closer to 100% the closer to the true weapon damage. There were 90000 crafters, there was one maybe two, and they were your best friend.

3. Community – EVERYONE knew everyone. The server was large enough to have people all over the world at all times, and yet small enough to remember everyone, what guild they were in, etc. I myself started off as a complete noobie in a large "family" guild and then worked my way up to one of those "elitist" guilds. Deathspam was awesome, when you killed someone the whole zone was alterted that you had just done so. People feared certain people and either refused to head out solo or grouped up en masse to survive. We also all used IRC at the time so it was awesome having the whole server on talking smack and/or congratulating eachother over pvp wins etc.

3. Skill – In my opinion the highest skill cap game released yet. Casters and healers were probably the best players I’ve ever seen and that game built and bred some of the best players in current MMO’s. Casters and Healers could not cast through damage and face tank people in this game. This was awesome, it encouraged positioning, situational awareness, kiting, prioritizing targets and abilities etc. Ever since WoW and even before then, games decided to go extremely casual and make it so you can cast in peoples faces with only a little delay in casting (which in most cases is removed via talents).

4. Items – All the best gear was crafted and thus everyone at end game was equal. At L50 (if you did your whole class quest) you got a full set of 100% quality armor which was really cool and unique looking. This never even got close to capping you on stats but it was a good start. Crafted gear + enchanting made everyone perfectly equal with their respective max stats.

5. Diminishing returns – Awesome CC implementation after the poorly designed release CC. Diminishing returns forced players to play smart (which is a good thing). If you stunned, slept, rooted someone etc they could not be controlled with that same spell again for a full minute. It really made players vigilant and conscious about when to do things and when to hold off because they would do more harm than good. Now a days people just throw cc at the nearest tab target and who cares, it means nothing.

6. Realm Abilities – Very fun and always left you wanting more. This was the quintessential min/max for your character. You wanted that extra +stats, you wanted to save for that expensive 10 point realm ability even if it did have a 30min cooldown lol. Some abilities were necessary, others were useful, and some were just fluff.

7. Ranking – I would love looking at the camelotherald website all the time to see where I stood vs everyone else pvping, where I stood in the assassin category, solo category and where our guild was. It was a small way of getting recognized by everyone on your server.

8. Character balance – Honestly, SWTOR has better balance but DaoC wasn’t too far off. Sure Hibernian casters could stun and nuke you down in a few seconds but hey, that’s life, one interrupt and they were yours. I honestly never said to myself, OMG that’s so fricken overpowered, or raged as hard as I do in Star Wars.

9. Named Mobs – ALL named mobs dropped something, and that was awesome. Anytime I saw a named mob I went and I had to kill it. Anyome remember the sword from Tusker the named pig in the Yarley Farm? He dropped a ****** sword that was the FIRST weapon with a particle effect in DaoC.

THE BAD

1. Radar – due to large map sizes and large zergs some of the gank groups uses radar programs to find fights and avoid the zergs. Not a huge issue to anyone who was mildly competent since you were panning 24/7 in that game so you didnt get flanked.

2. CC – for the first bit of the games PvP life there was no crowd control breaks, and no diminishing returns. If you landed a sleep on someone, good game, that guy was sleeping for a full minute. This was remedied fairly quickly and really turned the game around.

3. Population Imbalance – One strong realm was able to bully, zerg and camp the other side with relative immunity. Only a joined effort between the two enemy realms vs the big dog or a midnight raid to cripple the stronger force would tip the scales.

4. Emain – Poor Hibernians, they had the best terrain and it was easy on the eyes too. This made the best PvP open area but it left the poor Hibernians always defending their lands.

5. Stealth zergs – Omg, when people saw how good assassins were, they blew up and became flavor of the month. I was one of 3 Assassins on the whole server, but once people saw the power and sheer carnage of a well played assassin, people began to form whole groups of them in pvp and lie in wait to jump on helpless stragglers trying to join the fight or in some cases jump full groups.

6. Archers – Archers would one shot casters and own tanks too when the game released. This was remedied by giving casters bladeturn (made the first arrow get absorbed), gave shield tanks engage (they would face you and put up their shield and block all arrows, but they couldnt attack) they increased the chance to fumble and drop your arrow, they increased the chance to pop of out stealth when you were trying to fire and they made them visibile to almost all assassins. Poor archers, Mythic really laid the smack down hard, but good archers still prevailed.

7. TOA – complete utter disaster. No clue why decided to add a PvE expansion to a PvP game. It completely forced people that PvP to PvE just to remain on par. Items were so powerful and had insane "on use" effects that single handedly tipped the scales in your favor. The PvP got angry, joined in on the PvE fail, got the items, had to then grind their life away to level up the items and then go back to pvp. By then, the game lost a lot of subscribers and began its long and slow decline into the annals of history.

Daoc R.I.P "never forget"


Warlyx
02.07.2012, 12:09 AM
i enjoyed how archers worked in DaoC was original and refreshing ๐Ÿ˜€

u could spam fast but low dmg arrows or u could draw your bow (i still miss that sound! )

lots of arrows to choose from:

piercing , blunt , slashing ^^

opening with a critical shot >>>——> ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

best archery system ever ^^

archers go nerfed hard ๐Ÿ™ , but oh well , they changed archery later too adding lot of skills :S


Mallorik
02.07.2012, 12:19 AM
Daoc didnt have pvp gear, and all the end game gear you wanted for pvp was made by crafters with very few exceptions.

KilllerRock
02.07.2012, 12:43 AM
so instead of having gear advantage. you had flat out ability advantage.

yea, that sounds like ‘pure skill’ /sarcasm

it was minor ability advantage, its like a skill advantage in the 1-49 bracket between a level 30 and a level 45. Ya you’re missing out on a few abilities, but i feel at less of a disadvantage when i hit just as hard but am missing a skill or two, than when its a gear disadvantage and i can use all the same abilities but they just have higher dmg reduction and higher damage.


KilllerRock
02.07.2012, 12:45 AM
Also, why did Mythic instead of making Warhammer not just make DAoC 2? I seriously would purchase for $60 a updated version of the same original DAoC. Just update the graphics, make the PvE a little more enjoyable, and keep the classes/abilties/CC/AoE all the same and i would buy it.

FichutheDude
02.07.2012, 01:03 AM
A good templates at the beginning of TOA and reaching ML10 was not a ‘walk in the park’.
Plus you had to find a spellcrafter and alchimist. It’s was expensive and most of them were doing only their guild or were too busy.

So you had to ask in the forum and their price would be awesome. Or you had your own which mean you were far from being a new player anyway.

Reaching GM level was A PAIN IN THE BUTT. So I never did it myself .. I simply used my guild mates crafter ๐Ÿ˜€

MP armor did not come cheap either . You also would lose extra imbue points if you opted for 99%

Farming scroll ( You needed a group or a buffbot) with super rare drop rates and getting credit for your artifact was not pleasant and very long. I have fond memory of ppl camping spot for day so they could get that frigging arty credit or drop. DaOc was everything but not a casual game and you needed a group.

RvR had plenty of imbalances . Also a rr5 gank group pre made could beat a rr10 pug grp .. Sure. Really? Maybe if all their RA were down. Some class had active RA and most of the time it what made the difference between equally skilled group. Some RA were overpowered like MoC . Some class had their moment also . Like Warlock , Savage , Bonedancer, Cleric (yes yes CLERIC) , Sorcerer , Berserker and Enchanter!!

DaOC was not without problem. The open world RVR was the best thing about this game.

Plus leveling to 50 … Yes .. .Day and day camping the same area. It’s was WORK. Took me 18 day the first time … My XP bar keep moving a little .. .each hours after 100000 pull.


CicadaDDR
02.07.2012, 01:05 AM
UO PvP, imo.

Vylettes
03.12.2012, 05:56 PM
Plus leveling to 50 … Yes .. .Day and day camping the same area. It’s was WORK. Took me 18 day the first time … My XP bar keep moving a little .. .each hours after 100000 pull.

18 days? took me 30 for my first 50. But that is also what made the community so consistant. Since it took ages to make a level 50, people didnt have like 10 different level 50s or 20 different characters. Was important to make the one have a good reputation and less people to remember.


Aleksiel
03.12.2012, 06:04 PM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

THIS. Was good for it’s day but ridiculous now. RVR was the only good part. Getting one shot by an archers Long Draw was not fun. As far as gear goes, you dungeon crawled all day to get the best get to destroy people with. One of the reasons why a pvp stat was implemented in WoW. Don’t ever let any of these so called "true pvpers" tell you that the early games weren’t gear dependent, or that pvp was for the "thrill of killing others". If you didn’t have max level PvE gear you were getting destroyed, bottom line


Briljin
03.12.2012, 06:14 PM
Not sure I would call it more skill based, they had their share of OP classes and abilities just like any MMO. But their faction based PvP system blows away anything BW has right now.

Dego_Locc
03.12.2012, 06:26 PM
I know it must be shocking to some people that people actually rvr’d because it was enjoyable and not a grind for gear.

No, they grinded for "realm rank", which gave bonus to skills/stats at times.

Same thing as gear progression.
So a RR10 would pwn a RR 1 easily.

Without motivation or progression, or the cause to fight for relics, there wouldn’t have been a ton of ppl doing it "just for the fun of it."


Dharnyle
03.12.2012, 06:51 PM
Said it before and I’ll say it again.

DAoC was a RvR game. Not a PvP game.

Key differences were things like 3 factions. Biggest difference as it meant it wasn’t us vs. them but us vs. them and them.

Frontiers areas were 24/7. There were no safe zones or towns or bases in the Frontiers. It meant there could be small scale skirmishes or large relic raids… at any time whatsoever.

Up until "New Frontiers" the game didn’t play for the player. You couldn’t click on a map and see where the action was, you had to get out there and find the enemy. This gave rise to the players who were scouts. Constantly wandering the frontiers looking for trouble. It took time. A LOT of time and dedication. It took skill to be a solo scout moving at stealth and being able to track a enemy raid moving at speed, knowing where they were going and able to alert your realm for a possible CTA.

Frontier fighting wasn’t JUST about killing other players. Doing well in the frontiers meant a boon for your realm. Control your relics and the enemy relics, receive a stat boost to either damage or spells, depending on which relics you controlled. Control a majority of the frontier keeps and gain access to Darkness Falls dungeon.

But aside from that, the smart realms waged economic warfare on the other realms to cripple them. Keep doors didn’t respawn or repair themselves. The players had to expend time and currency to repair and upgrade doors, so you literally COULD raid a enemy realm, knock down keep doors but not take the keeps and force them to repair and upgrade doors themselves. Do it often enough and drain a realms players of the money needed to be successful in the Frontiers.

Relic Raids were epic excercises in teamwork. Again. RvR. Everyone was involved and the truely epic relic raids would start weeks before the actual raid. Even on the actual raid day the stealthers and scouts would be out combing the frontier looking for weak points and enemy movements hours and hours and hours before the raid even gathered.

But all that was before New Frontiers expansion when they changed everything.

I loved the old way in that game and was one of those crazy people who spent hours upon hours upon hours scouting the frontiers, ever vigilant.

But those days are long gone. No one present day is willing to put forth the time to do that anymore.

Lastly, I really am not looking at DAoC through rose colored glasses. It had some horrible flaws and some really FUBAR systems. But for all the flaws and *** moments, the mechanics of RvR was and is superior to PvP.

You really can’t compare the two.


Yeke
03.12.2012, 06:57 PM
Without motivation or progression, or the cause to fight for relics, there wouldn’t have been a ton of ppl doing it "just for the fun of it."

Not sure where you played but you didn’t get any rewards for repairing a relic keep door for hours on end nor running wood for the people repairing and yet they did it willingly also iirc there wasn’t realm abilities at release. (could be wrong but thats how i recall it)


Keldaur
03.12.2012, 06:59 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?

It wasn’t. People saying otherwise are just nostalgic.

The good thing was everybody could get crafted gear and go pvp, and the RvR was quite good, but the PvP had insane amounts of overpowereds CC’s.


kweassa
03.12.2012, 07:04 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?

It wasn’t really ‘skill based’, but more like "hardcore team coordination."

The limits between each class was so definate, and CCs were so powerful, as well as heals and debuffs, that each different class with distinct/absolute limitations had to perform their 100% as a team in order to win. A slight miss in team play used to cause catastrophic wipe outs.

Compared to that, in a relative sense, the classes we have in SWTOR, or any other contemporary MMOGs, is basically a lot more "omnipotent". Hence, the difficulty of the gruelling team-coordination went down a lot, and a lot more can be achieved as an individual.


Corran
03.12.2012, 07:04 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?

it was not. people have rose colored glasses on.

they forget the zerg trains, the long distance aoe mezz, the sos. they forget how that game actually played. they forget bonedancers and necros solo’ng full groups of their opponents for the nearly 8 months before aoe healing with your buffbot from the pk was fixed.

it was not more skill based, but it required more cooperation. it also required buffbots.


kweassa
03.12.2012, 07:06 PM
it was not. people have rose colored glasses on.

they forget the zerg trains, the long distance aoe mezz, the sos. they forget how that game actually played. they forget bonedancers and necros solo’ng full groups of their opponents for the nearly 8 months before aoe healing with your buffbot from the pk was fixed.

it was not more skill based, but it required more cooperation. it also required buffbots.

^^^ This too.

DAOC was fun while it lasted, but it definately wasn’t all that peachy pinky PvP heaven people like to describe as. Same goes for GW as well.

People simply find excuses in wherever place they look at.


Corran
03.12.2012, 07:07 PM
Not sure where you played but you didn’t get any rewards for repairing a relic keep door for hours on end nor running wood for the people repairing and yet they did it willingly also iirc there wasn’t realm abilities at release. (could be wrong but thats how i recall it)

because owning the keeps and relics increased your overall power in pvp and pve and the realm abilities were in very quickly. remember we’re talking about a game that released in 2001 – a time when you could not solo your way to 50 on most of the classes unless you already had a leel 50 buffbot following you around. there was no instancing. xp’ng was done mostly as a group

this lead to a feeling of community, something the genre has lost in recent years.


Dego_Locc
03.12.2012, 07:25 PM
because owning the keeps and relics increased your overall power in pvp and pve and the realm abilities were in very quickly. remember we’re talking about a game that released in 2001 – a time when you could not solo your way to 50 on most of the classes unless you already had a leel 50 buffbot following you around. there was no instancing. xp’ng was done mostly as a group

this lead to a feeling of community, something the genre has lost in recent years.
Exactly.


ProfessorWalsh
03.12.2012, 07:35 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?

DAoC was more skill based due to the dynamic nature of DAoC classes.

Ahem.

Playing a light tank (aka melee DPS) in DAoC was difficult. You had to take advantage of two major mechanics:

Positioning based abilities and Reactionary based abilities.

Positioning based abilities were abilities that could only be done from a certain location. Front, Back, or Side. A sub-category of this were abilities that could only be used right after doing previous abilities.

Reactionary based abilities were abilities that could only be used right after your character did a specific action before the circumstances were nullified.

So, you couldn’t learn a rotation, because you needed specific things to make it happen.

For example:

As a Blademaster the highest damage "chain" in the game was "Twin Star, Super Nova, and Solar Flare"

Which was a positional reactionary style.

You had to hit them from the side for Twin Star to go off, you could only do a Super Nova after a Twin Star, and you could only do a Solar Flare after a Solar Flare.

Then there was another one that was based off of a parry, and the catch was if you parried a shot, but then the opponent swung again before you could use your maneuver and you didn’t parry it would lose your window to use it. It was like, Scorpion Sting, Wasp Strike, and … I forget the last one.

I remember that was one of my big combos.

Wait for a parry, then fire off that combo, the last hit of the parry reactionary stunned the target for 2 seconds which gave me time to strafe around to the side and launch into the big finale.

It was less about running around and more about situational awareness and skill use control.


StrykerOne
03.12.2012, 07:47 PM
DAoC had (has, rather… it’s still going) some odd issues but the melee was certainly more skill-based than most games. You had attack chains (attacks that required using another specific attack first), lots of positional and reactive attacks, and the ability to queue two attacks so that if the conditions for the first one were met (like a reactive that you can only use after a parry) it would fire, otherwise your second attack would go off. That made the melee a lot more dynamic than just popping off whatever attack finishes its cooldown and maybe one reactive.

I’m not sure the PvP in general was more skill based though… the casters were either godlike (if not getting hit) or worthless (if being hit) since casting was interrupted by any damage at all and some debuffs. Also the CC was insane… fights generally were decided in the opening couple of seconds based on which team got their AoE mezz off first or were decided by which team had more of the long cooldown (5-15 minute) abilities that actually let you break CC / ignore interrupts ready. The main reason I liked it wasn’t the skill factor but rather the fact that it used to have large scale PvP, on the order of 200+ players per side at times, and had keeps and towers that guilds could siege, capture, and defend. Army vs army is more interesting to me than group vs group… if I want that I play a shooter.


STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP > How was DAoC pvp more "skill" based than other games?

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Aidank
02.01.2012, 11:31 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?


serovan
02.01.2012, 11:33 PM
Most likely because gear didn’t decide the outcome, Ive heard getting the pvp set in that game was easy so everyone was on the same playing field.

If not, it should be that way anyway.


xxdragonragexx
02.01.2012, 11:34 PM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.


Aidank
02.01.2012, 11:35 PM
Most likely because gear didn’t decide the outcome, Ive heard getting the pvp set in that game was easy so everyone was on the same playing field.

If not, it should be that way anyway.

Well, that’s not much different from games like wow, and I don’t really see how that makes a game skill based.

In arena past around 2200 rating pretty much everyone had the exact same gear, unless they had some pve legendary or some trinket but those weren’t really all that common.


Javacup
02.01.2012, 11:45 PM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

Cheating is a must because your leader doesn’t pan and react fast enough…? How is that not a skill problem?

Interrupt on casting adds in something called good positioning and peels, not tanking everything like other games.


Moriam
02.01.2012, 11:46 PM
Good topic. Lets get some daoc fanboys in here to respond though..
Was there any rankng system?
Also i have read that pve gear was better for pvp than pvp gear. Is this true?

Noctournys
02.01.2012, 11:49 PM
Cheating is a must because your leader doesn’t pan and react fast enough…? How is that not a skill problem?

Interrupt on casting adds in something called good positioning and peels, not tanking everything like other games.

.. so does getting hit reset your swing timer?

No?

Justify that one.


Girwen
02.01.2012, 11:51 PM
DAOC was rarely about skill. It was like most mmos about the number of people and the group make ups. The class balance was never what some claim it to be. Still it was a very awesome world to splore and had many fun times getting killed and killing =)

Moriam
02.01.2012, 11:51 PM
Cheating is a must because your leader doesn’t pan and react fast enough…? How is that not a skill problem?

Interrupt on casting adds in something called good positioning and peels, not tanking everything like other games.

What are you implying? I can agree that swtor does not reward good positioning and peels well but wow really did. I am not sure what game you are referring to.


Noctournys
02.01.2012, 11:56 PM
Well, that’s not much different from games like wow, and I don’t really see how that makes a game skill based.

In arena past around 2200 rating pretty much everyone had the exact same gear, unless they had some pve legendary or some trinket but those weren’t really all that common.

as much as i like to slap people over the unfounded love for DaoC, i do have to say the following in DaoC’s defense:

pretty much everyone in DaoC PvPed.

substantially less than 20% of WoW players have ever reached even middling arena ranks and almost 3 out of 5 have never stepped into an Arena at all… hell almost 2 out of 5 have never even PvPed.


Xsorus
02.01.2012, 11:58 PM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

Hmmm, some of the things you just said were changed within the first 6 months of DAOC, DAOC is like 10 years old now… So yea..

For example, No CC breaks….. Purge, Group Purge, Mez Break, Things like Charge on Melee DPS…. Pretty standard stuff for most of the games life.

The Interrupt system is honestly the best thing they did in that game, as it required skill to play a caster instead of standing right in front of the melee and spamming whatever your spell is. You had to be situationally aware of you surroundings on the Caster othewise you got crapped on, Your reward was basically high damage.

Perma Stun, again didn’t exist after the first 6 months of the games life, so that’s moot.

Archers, pretty much what you stated is false after first 6 months..2-3 Hits, yea not happening in DAOC….

Basically when I look at your post, I look at someone who played DAOC probably within the first 3 months of the game, and quit.. So you pretty much have zero say on how DAOC evolved as a PVP system.

Though when I see the last thing you stated, Maphack, aka radar, It boggles my mind, cause that easily didn’t come along till at least a year, So either you intentionally got your information wrong, Or you frankly were just bad.

But anyway, One group Mez killing your group was basically true if you were the worst 8man ever, Which judging by your post, was quite possible.

But lets go a step further, If you played Hib, it was actually better to be hit by a Group Mez because of Group Purge (CC immunity after Purging it) and Frankly if you managed to get a Instant Group Mez off on any Alb premade back NF i’d be amazed.

In closing, don’t speak of DAOC"s pvp when you’ve shown little grasp of it.


xxdragonragexx
02.02.2012, 12:01 AM
Hmmm, some of the things you just said were changed within the first 6 months of DAOC, DAOC is like 10 years old now… So yea..

For example, No CC breaks….. Purge, Group Purge, Mez Break, Things like Charge on Melee DPS…. Pretty standard stuff for most of the games life.

The Interrupt system is honestly the best thing they did in that game, as it required skill to play a caster instead of standing right in front of the melee and spamming whatever your spell is. You had to be situationally aware of you surroundings on the Caster othewise you got crapped on, Your reward was basically high damage.

Perma Stun, again didn’t exist after the first 6 months of the games life, so that’s moot.

Archers, pretty much what you stated is false after first 6 months..2-3 Hits, yea not happening in DAOC….

Basically when I look at your post, I look at someone who played DAOC probably within the first 3 months of the game, and quit.. So you pretty much have zero say on how DAOC evolved as a PVP system.

Though when I see the last thing you stated, Maphack, aka radar, It boggles my mind, cause that easily didn’t come along till at least a year, So either you intentionally got your information wrong, Or you frankly were just bad.

But anyway, One group Mez killing your group was basically true if you were the worst 8man ever, Which judging by your post, was quite possible.

But lets go a step further, If you played Hib, it was actually better to be hit by a Group Mez because of Group Purge (CC immunity after Purging it) and Frankly if you managed to get a Instant Group Mez off on any Alb premade back NF i’d be amazed.

In closing, don’t speak of DAOC"s pvp when you’ve shown little grasp of it.

So why are you in this game if daoc has the best pvp?

One more thing I forgot to add.

BUFFBOTS. Players basically need 2 accounts just so they can have twice the stats than the rest. Even if gear was easy to get, paying for another account gives a big advantage.


TheRealBrave
02.02.2012, 12:04 AM
So why are you in this game if daoc has the best pvp?

One more thing I forgot to add.

BUFFBOTS. Players basically need 2 accounts just so they can have twice the stats than the rest. Even if gear was easy to get, paying for another account gives a big advantage.

You don’t have to have buff bots in DAoC anymore. Just throwing that out there, and it was never hard to get someone to buff you with their bot anyways. You seem to be terribly uninformed.


Ribtips
02.02.2012, 12:06 AM
DaoC has nothing on AOC

Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:06 AM
Good topic. Lets get some daoc fanboys in here to respond though..
Was there any rankng system?
Also i have read that pve gear was better for pvp than pvp gear. Is this true?

That’s not how DAOC worked.

What is now considered the carrot in terms of progression in PvP in most MMO’s worked differently in DAOC. In DAOC you built your Template before PvPing, The way it worked was you went out and depending on the time frame of daoc (Before TOA or After) if before TOA you simply bought crafted gear and built a template off that, and based on the fact it was very easily to reach the stat cap in that game (There was a stat cap, Basically 75 on stats, 25 on resists, 200 HP, TOA changed it, allowed for going over the caps by 100 on stats, and 400 on HP) TOA introduced Artifacts and such, so you could potentially have cap weakness’s (like avoiding matter resist, or lowering it, and relying on buffs to cover it) to pickup items with abilities you could pop. All of this was achievable before you even entered PVP. So you either bought or PVEd your gear first.

Now what I said about what DAOC did differently is the Realm Rank system, What you see today as progression in gear was achieved through the Realm Rank system instead. So going into fresh level 50 PVP, you were Rank 1, And you’d get things like Rank 1l2, 1l3,1l4 and this would go up to the original Rank 10, Which is basically 100 Levels of PvP.

This allowed you to spend points into stats,abilities and such, But it was basically the same carrot.

a Rank 10 player was remarkably more powerful then a Rank 1, At about Rank 5 most 8mans could compete though if they were good.

How did people decide who had skill vs who didn’t in DAOC, since no actual ranking system took place?

Well simple, You simply killed your opponent more then they killed you, If you dominated the server with your 8man, people knew about it, No one talked about ****** groups that died all the time.


HelloKittyIsland
02.02.2012, 12:06 AM
If you needed maphacks to do good in 8v8 roaming rvr then you were just bad.

Complete open world RvR(pvp) over 3 different connecting areas is just awesome. There was no PvP gear and no "attributes" that were only for pvp that made you better. There were times were you would have battles of 100+v100+ people at castles. Each realm had 2 relics toward the inner most area of their RvR region that gave bonuses, if you owned the other realms’ relics.

Attacks interrupting casters made it so you had to be somewhat skilled while doing battles, so you wouldn’t be completely useless.

There was no permanent stun.
There were cc breaks.

DAoC had by far the best PvP, but the PvE was not all that enjoyable.

The buffbots did start to make it suck, but thats only if you solo. Has no real effect in groups or zerging it up with 50+ people.


Moriam
02.02.2012, 12:08 AM
You don’t have to have buff bots in DAoC anymore. Just throwing that out there, and it was never hard to get someone to buff you with their bot anyways. You seem to be terribly uninformed.

So what did the pvp revolve around? Group vs group pvp? How big? What was the goal? Control of resources? Was there a way to rank people? How did you gauge how skilled a player was?


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:09 AM
So why are you in this game if daoc has the best pvp?

One more thing I forgot to add.

BUFFBOTS. Players basically need 2 accounts just so they can have twice the stats than the rest. Even if gear was easy to get, paying for another account gives a big advantage.

DAOC is a 10 year old game, Really that simple.

Buffbots were a problem if you were solo and didn’t have one, But over the years they’ve somewhat removed the need for em, You could buy potions, used this Buff NPC they have, or do what I did for the longest time and just use the Champion LvL buffs (they were crappy, but I was played a Valkyrie then and could still win most 1v1’s)

In groups you simply had to have enough buffs to cover your group after they added Buff Shears, as you simply could not run without a buffer and expect to not have to port back to the keep after every fight, and you would have to cover the buffs mid fight as you’d gear sheared, or you’d rez someone with no buffs

Then of course you had classes like the Vampiir that had no need of buffs.


ReddNekk
02.02.2012, 12:10 AM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

I remember that all too well. 90% of the time in a one on one "fight" it was "stun-nuke-nuke-nuke-dead". I’ve never seen such insane CC as there was in that game.


TheRealBrave
02.02.2012, 12:11 AM
So what did the pvp revolve around? Group vs group pvp? How big? What was the goal? Control of resources? Was there a way to rank people? How did you gauge how skilled a player was?

Solo… 8 mans… raids… a lot of different ways to PvP in that game. It was skill based, gear didn’t matter too much and wasn’t very hard to obtain (pre-ToA). Not entirely sure what to tell you, you could tell how skilled a player was by observing them like in any other MMO without a ladder system. Because the game didn’t have rated battlegrounds or arenas it somehow meant the game involved no skill? I’m just curious at what kind of point you’re trying to make .


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:12 AM
So what did the pvp revolve around? Group vs group pvp? How big? What was the goal? Control of resources? Was there a way to rank people? How did you gauge how skilled a player was?

There was different levels of the pvp in DAOC depending on what you wanted to do.

Generally speaking, you had

Group vs Group (8v8) which was basically 8mans roaming around looking for other 8mans.

You had Zerg Buster groups, basically specific groups built for blowing the crap out of zergs and doing alright in PvP, really depended on the setup and the realm.

You had the Stealther Game, basically Stealthers either zerging it up, or 1v1 or small manning.

You had the visible who went out looking for 1v1’s and small mans, these were solo’s and such.

You had the actual Realm Combat, which involved zerging and taking keeps/towers (depending on OF and NF) trying to get the relics of the opposing side for a Bonus (20% melee or spell damage)


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:13 AM
I remember that all too well. 90% of the time in a one on one "fight" it was "stun-nuke-nuke-nuke-dead". I’ve never seen such insane CC as there was in that game.

That was either before 6 month mark of the game (when CC immunity wasn’t in) or after the 6 month mark of the game, and you were to stupid to have heat resist or purge the stun.


Moriam
02.02.2012, 12:13 AM
Solo… 8 mans… raids… a lot of different ways to PvP in that game. It was skill based, gear didn’t matter too much and wasn’t very hard to obtain (pre-ToA). Not entirely sure what to tell you, you could tell how skilled a player was by observing them like in any other MMO without a ladder system. Because the game didn’t have rated battlegrounds or arenas it somehow meant the game involved no skill? I’m just curious at what kind of point you’re trying to make .

Just curious


xxdragonragexx
02.02.2012, 12:13 AM
So what did the pvp revolve around? Group vs group pvp? How big? What was the goal? Control of resources? Was there a way to rank people? How did you gauge how skilled a player was?

Basically 8 man group would roam in open world pvp. Of course, whoever is leading has to have maphack cause whoever gets the drop on someone has the most advantage. Only a few participated in it.

I didn’t even do it, I enjoy defending keeps more. My wizard basically had 4 buttons. Fireball then insta + fireball then realm rank direct damage then darkness falls staff proc. Usually kills any caster I target on the keep.

Basically if a caster gets in range, he dies much like an operative killing someone in 3 hits while in a stunlock.


Javacup
02.02.2012, 12:14 AM
I know it must be shocking to some people that people actually rvr’d because it was enjoyable and not a grind for gear.

Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:15 AM
Like I stated, skill was determined on how well you did at killing your enemies, if you did well, people knew who your group was and feared you. No one feared bad players and they’re not remembered.

Plus you could see in the world chat when someone killed someone.

SO it’d be

Player 1 has been killed by Player 2.

So if you see a string of Player X has been killed by Player 2, it probably means player 2 just pbae’d the crap out of a zerg.


Aidank
02.02.2012, 12:15 AM
as much as i like to slap people over the unfounded love for DaoC, i do have to say the following in DaoC’s defense:

pretty much everyone in DaoC PvPed.

substantially less than 20% of WoW players have ever reached even middling arena ranks and almost 3 out of 5 have never stepped into an Arena at all… hell almost 2 out of 5 have never even PvPed.

Well, that’s mostly a community problem, not the game designer’s faults. After a couple of my friends quit I went pretty much an entire arena season looking for someone that was half decent that I could 3v3 with because literally 2/3 of the playerbase didn’t even turn with their mouse.

You can lead a horse to water…


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:18 AM
Basically 8 man group would roam in open world pvp. Of course, whoever is leading has to have maphack cause whoever gets the drop on someone has the most advantage. Only a few participated in it.

I didn’t even do it, I enjoy defending keeps more. My wizard basically had 4 buttons. Fireball then insta + fireball then realm rank direct damage then darkness falls staff proc. Usually kills any caster I target on the keep.

Basically if a caster gets in range, he dies much like an operative killing someone in 3 hits while in a stunlock.

Not true on first part

Second part, Learn to Pan.

Third Part.

Wizards didn’t have an insta besides VP from Realm Ranks.

you basically had Bolt (cast time) and your DD, since you’re talking about Early Game…


pherball
02.02.2012, 12:18 AM
I remember that all too well. 90% of the time in a one on one "fight" it was "stun-nuke-nuke-nuke-dead". I’ve never seen such insane CC as there was in that game.

I’ve been CC’d more often in TOR than I have ever been in DAoC. DAoC had proper DR and immunity to CC; TOR does not. I could easily get around CC in DAoC w/ Purge, which was on a longer RUT/CD than what we have in TOR.

I know it must be shocking to some people that people actually rvr’d because it was enjoyable and not a grind for gear.

I RvR’d because it was fun, and I loved it. I also RvR’d b/c of the realm rank system. When an enemy saw your nameplate it was your realm rank, not your actual name. So people knew what rank you were immediately. Buying new abilities w/ RP’s (realm points) was a second fun way to spec your character, and always gave something to look forward to.

Fast forward to TOR, and once you are Battlemaster there is very little long-term incentive to log into the game other than dailies/weeklies. OWPvP is broken, and people are afk’ing themselves to Battlemaster in Ilum. TOR’s PvP right not is not sustainable.


Javacup
02.02.2012, 12:19 AM
It doesn’t surprise me that dragonrage trolls the thread and then finally tells us that he avoids all organized 8v8, and sits in a keep with a zerg.

xxdragonragexx
02.02.2012, 12:19 AM
LOL that game also favors people who have way too much on their hands. At that time, the best gear was craftable. I had to put mods in it. I can put whatever mods I want.

But here’s the kicker, a realm rank 100 character will have more crits, more damage, and more utility than someone that is realm rank 1. Those guys spent years building their characters.

If you think fresh 50s in this game couldn’t stand on competitive grounds against a battlemaster then in that game, you need to spend a lot of time just to have the same stats as the person playing for a long time.


Powerr
02.02.2012, 12:20 AM
ill talk in sec

Javacup
02.02.2012, 12:22 AM
LOL that game also favors people who have way too much on their hands. At that time, the best gear was craftable. I had to put mods in it. I can put whatever mods I want.

But here’s the kicker, a realm rank 100 character will have more crits, more damage, and more utility than someone that is realm rank 1. Those guys spent years building their characters.

If you think fresh 50s in this game couldn’t stand on competitive grounds against a battlemaster then in that game, you need to spend a lot of time just to have the same stats as the person playing for a long time.

Oh my god shame on mythic for giving some advantage to people who played the game more often. A skilled <rr5 group will still dominate a terrible rr10 group that plays too much.


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:25 AM
LOL that game also favors people who have way too much on their hands. At that time, the best gear was craftable. I had to put mods in it. I can put whatever mods I want.

But here’s the kicker, a realm rank 100 character will have more crits, more damage, and more utility than someone that is realm rank 1. Those guys spent years building their characters.

If you think fresh 50s in this game couldn’t stand on competitive grounds against a battlemaster then in that game, you need to spend a lot of time just to have the same stats as the person playing for a long time.

Believe this was already stated by me, early in this thread.

The Gear progression you see in Modern MMO’s was converted into a Realm Rank Progression in DAOC.

As for who had to much time on their hands, Not correct, It more aptly rewarded people who were actually good at PvP, because unlike modern MMO’s, DAOC did not reward losing, You did not get anything for not killing the person you were fighting.

Meaning the more you won, the faster Realm Rank you got.

You didn’t need Rank 10 to compete against Rank 10’s either, like I stated in earlier post, if you group was good, and you worked well together, Usually around Rank 5 you could start putting up a fight against the higher rank guild groups if they were just bad.

The game didn’t punish you completely being bad though, cause even if you were terrible you could still zerg around with a large group and wreck other zergs and get Realm Points, so you would eventually get Rank 10 even if you were terrible.


MalFunkShun
02.02.2012, 12:26 AM
So what did the pvp revolve around? Group vs group pvp? How big? What was the goal? Control of resources? Was there a way to rank people? How did you gauge how skilled a player was?

Pvp revolved around a multitude of things. Keeps for example. By owning more keeps than the other realms, your realm had access to a PvE dungeon (Darkness Falls). It was also a good way to get extra renown (used for pvp leveling). These keeps could be upgraded by having stronger guards, gates, etc.. By controlling more keeps, you could reduce the amount of guards where an opposing realm kept Relics. Relic raids were insanely difficult to pull off, usually due cross-realm spying. These relics were then used to give your realm a buff. (Damage, renown gain, and I forget what else)

You would be looking at either group v group (8v8) or zerg vs zerg. Typically each zerg would have between 50-75 people. Mind you, when the 3 factions collide, it was a hell of a fight. The only "resources" in the game were the Relics (which happened a lot in the early morning hours, yeah, it was that hard to get them).

There WAS a way to rank people actually. DAoC’s website actually had a counter for all your renown (pvp points) gains for the week. IIRC it also showed how many kills and deaths you had as well. They typically updated these leaderboards weekly. One was for Overall Renown, and another for Weekly Renown.

Honestly, you gauged a person’s skill by how often you died to them, or how often you killed them. Some of it could be attributed to someone’s realm rank, some could be how often you see their name killing someone in chat.

Another thing that made PVP great for DAoC was the simplicity of it. Casters had the highest DPS. The downside to this was that if they were damaged, they completely lost the ability to cast that spell… there was no "pushback" feature like EVERY mmo has today. You would have to recast it. They also had the lowest hitpoints, and worst armor.

ANY melee who got a hold of a caster would usually tear him apart. Since the caster literally couldn’t do anything… except run.

I could list more reasons… like how unique the game was in terms of spells and classes.. Theurgist’s main DPS came from summoning pets to attack you… LOTS and lots of pets. Which either could stun you, or just DPS you. I hated them, and I even played a caster.


pherball
02.02.2012, 12:29 AM
Oh my god shame on mythic for giving some advantage to people who played the game more often. A skilled <rr5 group will still dominate a terrible rr10 group that plays too much.

That was the best thing about DAoC. You were still more than competitive beign lower realm rank if you were good. Once you get up to RR10-11-12 you’re basically buying things that aren’t really necessary, or providing much improvement. A group of RR5, which was pretty easy to get as an 8man, could still consistently take out the highest RR groups.

Battlemaster in TOR pre-Ilum garbage was probably the equivalent of RR4-5 in DAoC as far as time invested (514k RPs @ 100-200 a kill).


TheRealBrave
02.02.2012, 12:30 AM
LOL that game also favors people who have way too much on their hands. At that time, the best gear was craftable. I had to put mods in it. I can put whatever mods I want.

But here’s the kicker, a realm rank 100 character will have more crits, more damage, and more utility than someone that is realm rank 1. Those guys spent years building their characters.

If you think fresh 50s in this game couldn’t stand on competitive grounds against a battlemaster then in that game, you need to spend a lot of time just to have the same stats as the person playing for a long time.

Realm Rank 100? Okay you have no idea what you’re talking about.


Mavella
02.02.2012, 12:33 AM
DAoC around the time of its first expansion (Shrouded Isles) required little PvE to actually get into PvP once you reached level 50. If you saved up enough gold while leveling you could afford to craft a set of gear which capped all your stats and resistances no matter what class you played. There were a couple pieces of armor that had chance to heal for a small amount if that piece got hit which were a little superior to crafts but it wasn’t a total deal breaker to not have.

You could also get Realm Rank 4L2 by 50 which allowed you to get RR5L0 within a week or two of getting 50 allowing everyone to get their core set of realm abilites (PvP actives and passives aquired for participating in pvp). Past RR5 you would pretty much have more passives making your character slightly better than the average RR5L0 player. Again not a huge difference but a little reward for sticking with a character for a year or more allowed you to push into the RR8-9-10 area if you were an active pvper.

The RvR had a purpose. It wasn’t about completing daily quests or a rating. The only thing akin to a rating in that game would be LWRP (Last week RP total) for a character, a high amount obviously meant you were scoring a high amount of kills and participating heavily in RvR. There was also a lucrative PvP/PvE dungeon that each realm could access depending on who controlled the majority of keeps. A lot of PvP happened in there and it was easily one of the best places to level up and aquire money for the first couple years of the game. There was also the Relic system which provided a 10%/20% bonus of magic / physical damage depending on how many enemy relics you held in big keeps within your frontier. They were attack-able at any time and well worth controlling or preventing your enemy from controlling considering the bonuses they provided.

Casters were extremely powerful which is why the interrupt system was so punishing in that game but skilled casters were easily some of the most dangerous enemies you could come across. Giving them a small window of opportunity could easily result in them pumping out tons of damage in a very short time. 2-3 PBAoE casters could easily wipe out zergs of 40+ players in a matter of seconds if they caught them in the most favorable of conditions (zerg clumped up all nailed with CC or just not paying attention, attacking a keep door, etc).

The CC system was also pretty balanced since it gave quite a long time of immunity, melee stuns giving 5 * the duration in immunity and casted roots/stuns giving a minute of immunity after being broken or fading. Mezzes could also be purged via realm abilities, decreased in duration significantly for many melee classes, and cleansed by support classes. This system also allowed for single groups (8 people) to combat much larger groups of more unorganized opponents and be able to win. I participated in a 8v32 and actually won due to impressive teamwork on our part.

Sadly their second expansion (Trials of Atlantis) added a significant PvE hurdle to be able to successfully enter the RvR stage (a month+ to level and easily a month+ to finish all the required ToA PvE content). This where many players mark the decline of DAoC because it became more and more about PvE before you could successfully RvR.


anasa
02.02.2012, 12:34 AM
Daoc needs more skill mostly cause of it’s 10 years old interface. It’s so hard to play at high level.
But the thing that makes DAoC great is the that – if I renew today after 3 years, my RR9 shadowblade is still there. Ready to kill after I make a her a new template armor.

If I renew my WoW Paladin who has been inactive for 6 months, she’ll be an outdated piece of trash.


Javacup
02.02.2012, 12:39 AM
The toa pve was actually a bit of a joke, between necro + cleric duo, or stacking animists, you could roll through any encounter with 1-2 people dual boxing.

My biggest complaints
– Window dragging
– Screenshot spamming
– Lag casting
– Playing mordred, portal macroing away whenever someone is about to lose a fight (yes, applied to groups often too)
– That little lag spike whenever a group comes into clip, kind of a dead giveaway you had incoming


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:39 AM
You can easily tell a Modern MMO player who plays casters vs one who played a DAOC caster.

Modern MMO caster, does not pan, and will wait till Melee gets to him, DAOC one, will pan and is paranoid as hell of letting a player get to him.

It very easy to determine when watching a video.

Modern MMO’s in general just don’t pan at all.

This was very noticeable in Rift for example during White fall BG, My group would side swipe the enemies or hit them from behind when they were in Middle, and they would never see it coming.. and really, you should be able to see it coming in that game, as it wasn’t exactly hard to see the group running by.


fungihoujo
02.02.2012, 12:44 AM
as much as i like to slap people over the unfounded love for DaoC, i do have to say the following in DaoC’s defense:

pretty much everyone in DaoC PvPed.

substantially less than 20% of WoW players have ever reached even middling arena ranks and almost 3 out of 5 have never stepped into an Arena at all… hell almost 2 out of 5 have never even PvPed.

Yes… but other mmos have enjoyable pve- including this one. Thus, many players are pvers. DAoC pve was absolutely awful, so there was nothing else to do, and if say, a server capped at 500- those 500 would almost all be wanting to pvp.

TOR- if you have 500, chance are half don’t pvp much or at all, another chunk split their time between all aspects- and you might end up with 100 or likely less actually interested in pvping most of the time.


KrustyDog
02.02.2012, 12:47 AM
Well, that’s not much different from games like wow, and I don’t really see how that makes a game skill based.

In arena past around 2200 rating pretty much everyone had the exact same gear, unless they had some pve legendary or some trinket but those weren’t really all that common.

So what your saying is 5% of the people had the exact same WAY overpowered gear. 5% is a far cry from "all the people."


Powerr
02.02.2012, 12:48 AM
DAoC was very very high skill cap game.

Noobs were soooo bad, and the best players were killable yet, dominant.
Killable in the sense you could kill the best caster in the game rank 11 or whatever in 4 good melee swings. Yet dominant in the sense, they could just drop people in 3-4 nukes.

Now, different types of team setups were what made the game so competitive

You had:

Caster extend groups
The Albion realm caster extend group consisted of generally a cabalist (body 50% debuff + disease), 2x sorcerers (1 CC spec, 1 body nuke spec), a theurgist or 2 (spam pets that chase enemies, ice pets snare, earth pets hit hard, wind pets stun lock), an armsmen or paladin tank(peel bot! most essential! HAS TO SNARE ALL MELEE, SLAM [9sec stun] targets and call for burst) 2x healers [high realm rank meant they would have realm abilities such as group shields against melee and magic, purge, higher heal stats, mastery of physical defense]

Melee train groups
The midgard realm was most unanimous for this setup

2x beserker (turn into a bear and hit like a truck), skald(super speed and cc class), warrior(peel class) , runemaster(PBT aka group buff that makes targets miss 3 or so attacks in a row), shaman (spec buffs aka str/con, dex/qui and buffs that healers didnt have, AND MASSIVE INTERRUPTS/BUFF SHEARS (steal buffs), healer(mez spec), healer(heal/melee attack speed buff spec aka CELERITY)

Hybrid Groups
Hib had strong hybrid groups composed of casters and melee etc etc etc

Anyways in DAoC your group moved so fast that the most efficient way to roam was to /stick your driver who was mainly the CC sorc on alb, CC healer on mid, or bard on hib.

Imagine a game where groups of 8 run around a planet (frontier in daoc) and RESPECT other guilds fights, if you saw 2 realms fighting each other, there was MUTUAL RESPECT from all players and they would not RED ITS DEAD.

Imagine a game where your reputation was the only thing that mattered. People that assjammed fights were blacklisted and called out on the forums, never to get groups again. If you didnt have a good guild or good rep, you would simply never get in a decent 8 man.

Honable fighting at its finest.

gosh darn i miss daoc

if you werent a MASTER at panning the camera, kiting, snaring your target as melee, NOT OVEREXTENDING, you were as good as dead.

If you overextended or "fell behind" aka got rooted or just slow to pull back, your team lost, and you probably got yelled at.


Aidank
02.02.2012, 12:51 AM
So what your saying is 5% of the people had the exact same WAY overpowered gear. 5% is a far cry from "all the people."

The problem was the most people just didn’t pvp… If you actually tried, and played with other people that actually tried, getting 2200 wasn’t difficult. You can’t really blame the game for the fact that the majority of the playerbase was so afraid of actually pvping.


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 12:52 AM
Yes… but other mmos have enjoyable pve- including this one. Thus, many players are pvers. DAoC pve was absolutely awful, so there was nothing else to do, and if say, a server capped at 500- those 500 would almost all be wanting to pvp.

TOR- if you have 500, chance are half don’t pvp much or at all, another chunk split their time between all aspects- and you might end up with 100 or likely less actually interested in pvping most of the time.

DAOC actually had a very good PVE system, sorry to say.


Girwen
02.02.2012, 12:55 AM
I think my fondest memory was sadly a bug in this game. It was just so many giggles. I had a enchanter i was messing with in the teens and a patch messed up the way pets worked. I could stand on a bridge and wait for anybody of any level to come by and send my helper after them. Rarely failed that after they got done with the horse ride and into a battle my pet would attack them out of nowhere and i would get credit. It was much much giggles.

Javacup
02.02.2012, 12:56 AM
DAOC actually had a very good PVE system, sorry to say.

Like I said in my previous post, you could abuse it but yeah.

Actual raid groups doing ML’s/dragons and such was fun… But animist/thurg mass pet attacking messing with bosses defenses, buffed necro pets being nearly unkillable to melee, spiritmaster pets close to necros.


Vylettes
02.02.2012, 01:00 AM
Positioning mattered. Casters/Healers couldnt cast at ALL if something hit them, they would get interrupted. I remember the first day of WoW going omg I can cast while people are hitting me!!!!

Working as a team, even while leveling, was also important. Healers were mostly that, healers. For a healer to solo a npc it was usually a much lower level npc since they didn’t have a lot of damage. Put a healer + a dps or tank together and the power of the group would increase dramatically for pve.

8 man groups had specific make ups. You needed a class that could give group speed, 2 healers (that way if one healer was being interrupted, the other healer could still heal), and damage dealers and a crowd control class. All the specific things like crowd control/healing/high damage were all specific to characters. You did not have one char that could heal/dmg/cc all in one. That made the character rolls a lot more focused.

You even had an entire other subset of classes that would NEVER get a group, ie the stealthers. They were not good at all with groups since most of their moves came out of stealth and they didn’t have any cc-reduction abilities. But the stealthers ruled the bridges and thoroughfares of the pvp zones if they caught you alone.

But, since the game was seriously based on skill, someone who couldnt play their class would just drop dead to someone who knew how to play their class due to interrupts etc, it wasnt a game for the masses. People who sucked can play WoW but not DAOC, which means a lower population for DAOC than WoW and other games.

Every other game I have played since, its more like every man for themselves, even in group scenarios. The only every man for themselves gameplay in DAOC was the solo 1v1, which was mostly stealthers. You did not play badly or stupidly while in a group because you would get a reputation and no one would group you again.


Xsorus
02.02.2012, 01:02 AM
Like I said in my previous post, you could abuse it but yeah.

Actual raid groups doing ML’s/dragons and such was fun… But animist/thurg mass pet attacking messing with bosses defenses, buffed necro pets being nearly unkillable to melee, spiritmaster pets close to necros.

Hib and Alb had it rough on ML’s and Dragons, because of the way Theurgist/Animist worked it didn’t require a huge raid and didn’t foster realm pride like midgard did.

Mid’s didn’t have that classes, so that meant if you wanted to take on a Dragon or an ML encounter, it meant bringing people…

I remember doing ML raids, with 400 people in Midgard, 400 people.. moving around killing things.. was hilarious..


Javacup
02.02.2012, 01:07 AM
My most memorable moment was the often confused "you stole my cloudsong", was in the vent when it happened, hilarious until people thought it was wow related.

Saerol
02.02.2012, 01:21 AM
DAoC made PvPers keep playing despite any reward besides the combat itself for years even after they had hit the rank caps. Gear was a means to an end to most players, building the "right" combination of dropped and crafted/spellcrafted items to make the most out of your character.

Konraxhatred
02.02.2012, 01:25 AM
DAoC made PvPers keep playing despite any reward besides the combat itself for years even after they had hit the rank caps. Gear was a means to an end to most players, building the "right" combination of dropped and crafted/spellcrafted items to make the most out of your character.

THIS is why this game is still alive, if someone had a better temp then you, you couldn’t beat them but for them to have that temp took LOTS of time, tons of farming and plat to do so


Konraxhatred
02.02.2012, 01:25 AM
I also love the fact is when a spellcrafter is crafting there was a "SMALL" chance of him blowing up and dieing lol

jockekanske
02.02.2012, 01:52 AM
the synergy between 8ppl vs 8(or more) needs more skill then anything ive played so far and for a diffrent goal, not gear or anything(as i saw realm rank more as a bonus for my character), but the thrill for another awsome 8vs8 fight!

totally miss all the good grp vs grp fights that could drag on for a long time aswell and the joy to beat that high realm rank group with excellent teamwork, all the kiting, interupting, assisting etc love it !


Kyoshir
02.02.2012, 02:27 AM
Thing i like alot about daoc was getting gear to pvp was easy and also stealthers were fun climbing keep walls killin casters nuking ur realm outside also rvr u took keeps for relic made a point to go out and pvp. The realm rank made a point to pvp then just gear as it is nowadays. ALSO FFA SERVER BEST IDEA EVER.

Powerr
02.02.2012, 02:35 AM
http://vnboards.ign.com/ywain/b23441/115921849/p2

WATCH THE VIDEO CALLED PLAYER BASE 2ND POST TO LAST ON THIS PAGE

Shows POV’s of every class in the group on alb


TheEvilreaper
02.02.2012, 02:40 AM
DAOC for the most part got rid of your gear is better than mine so I win in PVP. It was not and still is not hard to get your character templated with a set of weapons/armor.

There was a grind for Realm Ranks in which you got some increase to your character like higher crit chance or more Hit points and also some ablities on cooldowns. Realm Ranks played a roll in PVP very much so and Usually someone 3 or 4 Realm Ranks higher you could not kill or it took some work. Realm Ranks where a grind mind you though.

But more than anything the PVP actually meant something. You had battlegrounds you did not have to queue for that had a central keep to try to control that was always in conflict 24/7 as long as people where in it.

You had Realm bonuses or Side bonuses to all the characters for Fighting and taking certain keeps in Open World PVP. DAOC did PVP right bottom line.


Hypernetic
02.02.2012, 02:45 AM
DAOC for the most part got rid of your gear is better than mine so I win in PVP. It was not and still is not hard to get your character templated with a set of weapons/armor.

There was a grind for Realm Ranks in which you got some increase to your character like higher crit chance or more Hit points and also some ablities on cooldowns. Realm Ranks played a roll in PVP very much so and Usually someone 3 or 4 Realm Ranks higher you could not kill or it took some work. Realm Ranks where a grind mind you though.

But more than anything the PVP actually meant something. You had battlegrounds you did not have to queue for that had a central keep to try to control that was always in conflict 24/7 as long as people where in it.

You had Realm bonuses or Side bonuses to all the characters for Fighting and taking certain keeps in Open World PVP. DAOC did PVP right bottom line.

All I hear is "more time played = some sort of advantage" which is pretty much the same in any mmo. So it wasn’t gear that gave you an advantage in DAoC, it was realm rank? What is the difference?


TheEvilreaper
02.02.2012, 02:52 AM
All I hear is "more time played = some sort of advantage" which is pretty much the same in any mmo. So it wasn’t gear that gave you an advantage in DAoC, it was realm rank? What is the difference?

It was an actual grind to achieve a realm rank advantage kinda like the time people have put into EVE online. Also Realm Ranks gave you stats or bonuses it did not make your character always win, stats kinda like Datacrons and bonuses kinda like stims or adrenals if they are down for cooldown timers which are long than most any of the ones in the game right now it was still a pretty even match.

Ever game will always have certain classes that kill other ones with ease, but sometimes and very true in DAOC you could compenstate for that with skill to a degree.

Heck even at 49 right now if a level 10-15 gets on me I /laugh and roll him thats not fun to be honest so I usually end up running into a group of 2-4 and see what I can do test my limits and try to get better for the 50 brackets.


TwitchFE
02.02.2012, 02:53 AM
I miss the actual overall usefulness of crafting in MMO’s to date.

JobaFat
02.02.2012, 02:57 AM
i miss the actual overall usefulness of crafting in mmo’s to date.

omg this, and I do have Biochem and had slicing when it was easy profits.


ScootyPuffSenior
02.02.2012, 03:13 AM
I remember that all too well. 90% of the time in a one on one "fight" it was "stun-nuke-nuke-nuke-dead". I’ve never seen such insane CC as there was in that game.

Group(s) vs group(s) PvP is a balancing act between CC power and numbers determining the outcome. You can toss in class imbalances and gear disparity, but as long as those latter two are reconciled (and I think everyone agrees they should be in a good PvP game), then the result is either numbers or CC. For me, while I disliked being CC’d, having the potential of winning despite being pretty outnumbered dwarfed my CC annoyances.


il-jumper
02.02.2012, 03:16 AM
Imma let you finish, but GW has the most skill based and balanced PVP in any MMO

anasa
02.02.2012, 03:19 AM
This is what made DAoC great too!_!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIRY8VantWw

8 skilled players crushing the clueless zerg. Only in DAoC. Nostalgia -_-


Safgril
02.02.2012, 03:43 AM
ick… GW?

no way… horrible game.

Didnt like GW1 and no way would give GW2 a shot.

the best game that actually TOOK REAL SKILL TO PLAY was and still is….

ASHERON’S CALL

about DAOC… well you can love the game like all the fanboys or you can take a more of an Outside the box looking in approach like me.

I liked DAOC for what it was.. .but it was by far NOT perfect like so many fanboys claim

imbalanced classes… stealth was king in that game… till toa came out

Mythic could just not balance the classes.. .they couldnt do it in DAOC and couldnt do it in Warhammer.

there was always OVERPOWERing classes. There was a saying.. if you play a mythic game… play the worst possible class… it will become the most overpowered later… there were nerfbat extroadinaires.

what you get in DAOC is what we call ELITISM.. it was really bad in DAOC…in order to make some 8 man teams.. there were requirements…

its funny some mention it was friendly and helpful etc. that was the case before WOW came out. And the masses started entering into the genre. Attitudes changed from then on. Rudeness and swearing became more accepted.

in early years of AC, EQ, DAOC… people frowned on swearing in the open channel. And poeple would literally tear you a new one if you swore. helping each other was standard for MMOs… nowadays if you ask a question you will be called noob.. ridiculed for not knowing…

Yeah most games today require gear as the progression in PVP… however DAOC had its own.. it was REALM RANKS… same damn thing.. a RR10.. now its RR13… can easily beat a RR1… 1v1…

a rank 1 just doesnt have the proper tools for PVP like purge which you buy when you rank up…

however, this is Mythics downfall… a new person coming into the game and starting at 50 goes out gets geared up.. thinks cool im competitive to play…

then they wiped fast… they cancel account… this was typical…

maintaining a solid number in daoc’s life was hard for them… they had a hard time getting new subs after you had a LOT of guilds that were "ELITE" feeding on the newcomers into the frontiers…

cant tell you how much RAGE you heard in chat over this. But of course, peoples memories tend to fade as years go by.

to me the best game ever that had it all… GOOD PVP and all the other bells and whistles was PRE CU SWG…

this game had its own problems but it tailored to the hardcore pvpers and the casual players and roleplayers.

oh and one last thing about DAOC.. there was NO OPEN WORLD PVP.. it was all instanced…

you entered into a battleground by loading in.. also went into the frontiers loading in… it was a separate area of the world… your homeland was SAFE… always…

I specifically loved the later attitude of taking and defending keeps of oh midgard is taking a keep… blah who cares… we will get it back when they all log off…

this was another problem… wasnt fun taking empty keeps after awhile… especially if your realm was dominating the other 2… of course this is the worst case scenario…

P.S. oh and daoc only has 1 server… yeah its barely running with only the RR13s running around or trying to level up another …

warhammer about the same.. what are they down to? 2 or 3 servers? exactly why mythic was dissolved…


Zomgasm
02.06.2012, 05:07 PM
Positioning mattered. Casters/Healers couldnt cast at ALL if something hit them, they would get interrupted. I remember the first day of WoW going omg I can cast while people are hitting me!!!!

Haha, I laughed so hard when I saw this in the game. People have no idea what it’s like having to play a caster in DAoC. (Coming from a tri-spec cabby)

WoW arena was a cakewalk after all my experience in DAoC. Merc Glad and Multi-Glad, anything after season 4 was garbage too.

Needless to say, I reactivated my account and I’ve been playing for the last week and having a blast.


StealthStalker
02.06.2012, 05:15 PM
I don’t know that I’ve ever claimed DAOC was more skillful in any regard, it was just more fun.

I didn’t grind my RvR ranks, they just came as I killed people. I could do that in keep defenses, zerg vs zerg relic fights, roaming 8v8, lowbie persistent BG’s, or soloing on any character I had for some sweet 1v1 or 1vX encounters.

My RR’s eventually let me do one or more things much more effectively, but until then I knew I had to work with others or use my other advantages (skill, terrain, whatever) to their fullest else I’d be defeated.

I never once said, "Man, I need one more win for my daily".


Drivex
02.06.2012, 05:38 PM
You know what made DAoC more fun?

1- You didnt have to search for gear, once 50 you could get 1 person to set you up in crafted / bought gear and you could pvp and win.

2- It was more based on skill in the fact you didnt have to zerg you could solo and still be effective

3- there was no arenas and rating, just a Rank that gave you more points to use in another tree for pvp purposes.

4- You actually could have 1 v 1 fights and enjoy it.

5- There was a point to holding the different castles in the open world pvp, or the relics ect. What is the point of Ilum seriously?

Ya it had flaws, mostly from morons hacking/cheating. However the game itself was great. I personally wish there was a game with DAoC pvp and WoW pve … that would be a game


Kolbenito
02.06.2012, 05:43 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?

No.

Since the word "skill" is used to mean almost anything on these forums I will elaborate. It is an archaic MMO with an absurd number of classes, overpowered CC, overpowered burst and large group battles. Skill is unlikely to have anything to do with anything that happened in DAoC PVP, I don’t doubt that it was fun though.


ARMofGod
02.06.2012, 05:57 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?

Well first and foremost, DAOC wasn’t programmed and designed by monkeys like swtor. If you hit a button the spell goes off. If you turn to the left and click a player you target that player. No ifs ands or buts.

Now imagine a class that can kill you in 4 hits(swing speed <1s), but a fight with them lasting ten minutes. Imagine a group of 8 that could tear apart 50 castle defenders, but that were owned by a group of 5 in open terrain. Daoc was more skilled based because there was a counter to everything and tons of unique ideas rolled into a STABLE well functioning game. When you were CC’d in DAOC you knew what hit you (**** how do you make a pvp game without a combat log swtor?) and you knew exactly how long you would be immune to another cc based on that. Everything was thought out and timed if you wanted to win, from casting spells to sprinting to purging cc to using abilities. There was no "just spam tracer missle", because the second anything sneezed on a caster he was interupted. His ranged damage came at the price of having to avoid interupts. Melee didn’t just use an ability. They used an ability, and also qued up an alternate attack if the first one failed. You based your melee attacks on whether you blocked, you evaded, your target blocked/evaded, or what angle you were hitting your target from. You didnt just spam buttons, you watched what your enemy was doing to properly respond. In DAOC i had 5 swords ready at all times so that I could pull out the one that would be resisted the least by my enemies armor type. All these little nuances dont exist in this game. The ONLY thing this game has on DAOC is the idea of warzones(which is just taken from warhammer). But DAOC actually had end game PVP content, so until the pops dropped you didnt need warzones.

ps: FU bioware for making this game so poorly.


ARMofGod
02.06.2012, 06:02 PM
Good topic. Lets get some daoc fanboys in here to respond though..
Was there any rankng system?
Also i have read that pve gear was better for pvp than pvp gear. Is this true?

There was no PVP gear. Players crafted their armor, and everything that went into it. Then they dyed it all the colors they wanted. There was a need to do some long PVE raids to start off, but generally(for a veteran player) level 1-50 grind was 3 days, and gear grind/realm rank grind was 2-3 weeks to be good enough to fight with everyone else.


Zarthorn
02.06.2012, 06:07 PM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

CC that last for 30 seconds, of which you gain a RR earned CC breaker, which made you immune to mezz for 2 minutes

Stun that lasted a max of 8 sec (from slam) again, immunity was 2 minutes.

Focus casting allowed you to cast one uninteruptable to gain distance, also if you were good at your class you could cast in between attacks to avoid interuption.

Archers could only kill in 3 hits out of stealth, which they had to wait a full 10 seconds out of combat to restealth, getting caught = death.

Maphack was for baddies that couldn’t play properly, many of them got banned.

The reason DaoC was so skill based is a group of 8 people could take down a zerg if they were good at coordinating and teamplay.


Rallic
02.06.2012, 06:28 PM
Very few games I’d call grate, DAoC is one of them.
UO as it was my first. And shadow bane for the massive city siges.

For me if I could make a game it would be a mix of all three. Leaving all the bugs they had out. As each if them held a lot of bugs.

Not as many as swg , but bugs.

The timed PvP of DAoC , not braking the cc with aoe spells and such. The open feel of UO, the siges of shadow bane. And just to put the icing on it the crafting of swg.

Is say if DAoC was remade with a updated gfx and new GUI , they could do rerelease and do well.


ARMofGod
02.06.2012, 06:35 PM
Very few games I’d call grate, DAoC is one of them.
UO as it was my first. And shadow bane for the massive city siges.

For me if I could make a game it would be a mix of all three. Leaving all the bugs they had out. As each if them held a lot of bugs.

Not as many as swg , but bugs.

The timed PvP of DAoC , not braking the cc with aoe spells and such. The open feel of UO, the siges of shadow bane. And just to put the icing on it the crafting of swg.

Is say if DAoC was remade with a updated gfx and new GUI , they could do rerelease and do well.

Really? I loved DAOC crafting. I guess mostly because it actually made useful things that I cared about.


Aroidan
02.06.2012, 06:44 PM
Whoever listed that 8 man composition had it slightly wrong… Almost all 8 man alb groups had a Minstrel in it for speed and Added CC and other support abilities.

The reason DAoC was more skill based was because at the end of the day the gear and RRs only really gave a class more utility in a group. A RR0 could still beat a RR10 the reason it was less likely for a RR10 to beat a RR0 was because of a thing called Experience. Regardless how bad of a player you were if you hit RR10 you had learned some basic tactics for how to handle what your class was weak against and strong against and good spots to launch an ambush etc.

If I encountered an archer class 1 vs 1 I could beat them by properly using /face /stick commands and getting into melee. If they were good they might still be able to drop me before I got into melee but once I did they were screwed. This lead to a lot of stealth bating as well. 2 or 3 archers would get together to hold the mile gates. So a healer and a tank would get together and wait for them to pop out of cover and take a shot. If the healer was decent I could protect them while charging down the stealther or making them run and the healer could cast a quick stun on them letting me close the gap. If the other archer came out of stealth to try and take us out it became a game of does the healer stay close enough for guard or not etc. There was also some luck involved like, would my heal procs go off and so on.

The reason I stopped playing was 2 fold. The game was AMAZING pre ToA after that artifacts and Master Levels required massive groups of 40+ to complete and some of the raids took 8 or more hours to complete. This was simply not fun anymore and you needed the master levels to compete in RvR. On top of that Artifact leveling was a pain and not fun. Also New Frontiers was not good. Granted I like the look of the new keeps and the upgrading of them but I prefered the old map layouts and keep positions and mile gates etc. I also hated all the towers. Suddenly there was way too much to keep track of and do in RvR.

All this being said the thing that really screwed PvP and has made it about a gear progression was the advent of Bind on Pickup. Get rid of this mechanic and allow the top tier raid gear to be sold means you can get rid of the stupid expertise stat which means that now a PvPer can get the gear he needs by either buying it or raiding for it.


CommandoPower
02.06.2012, 06:45 PM
it isn’t.
CC that lasts for 30 seconds.

And longer. But this was only mezz type abilities that broke on damage. You also had classes that could free you and purge (self CC break). Granted it sucked when you got caught with your pants down and no way out but to watch your friends die, but that didn’t happen much in my experience.

No CC breaks.

Everyone could get purge, self CC release vs everything. Which then gave you immunity = to 3 times the max duration of that CC. Other classes could unmezz you. Tanks got vastly reduced times on CC’s, tanks got patched to be able to do a CC breaking "roar".

Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.

Yup, it meant that you could shut down caster damage mostly. But to be fair casters did far and way more damage than any other class. They blew people up HARD. Being able to stop them, mostly, was the only thing that kept them from being completely and totally overpowered.

Even then you could get RA’s that would give you 2 uninterruptible faster casts instead of 1, and another that made you completely uninterpretable for X seconds…but gave you a moderate damage % penalty.

Permanent stun.

The horrible stun from that game was 9 seconds max. The casted (Ranged) stuns had their duration reduced by your resistances so they were in reality 6 seconds or so. Melee stuns lasted the full 9 but required a shield and high investment into shields or certain conditions to pull off.

You could purge this stun.

After you got stunned you gained immunity to stun for 3 times the duration of the original stun and could not be stunned again WHILE stunned to bypass this. That’s 27 seconds of immunity.

Currently in SWTOR I regularly get chain stunned. The max duration is theoretically 8 seconds, 1 second shy of your DAOC stun. However the immunity time is vastly shorter and resolve is broken, thus I have been stunned in excess of 15 seconds straight here before (longer with very short breaks of not being stunned), which never happened in DAOC.

Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Simply did not happen past very early on in the games life unless the caster thought they could war 20 levels old gear lol.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

This is something that only happened late in the games life and they started banning people for it when they figured out how to sniff it out.

BUFFBOTS. Players basically need 2 accounts just so they can have twice the stats than the rest. Even if gear was easy to get, paying for another account gives a big advantage.

Buff bots didn’t become commonplace until far later, and then both sides had them and everyone was buffed.

I agree that they were lame and buffing classes needed redesign, but you do not understand the game at all. The people screwed by buff bots were those with self buffs. They were intended to have advantages over people that they did not get.

I remember that all too well. 90% of the time in a one on one "fight" it was "stun-nuke-nuke-nuke-dead". I’ve never seen such insane CC as there was in that game.

You gotta be kidding me, it happens all the time here lol. Sometimes with 1 person other times with 2. We just now got past operatives and scoundrels doing that to EVERYONE. CC is far more plentiful in SWTOR than it was in DAOC with lesser counters and immunities.


FourTwent
02.06.2012, 06:47 PM
Buying new abilities w/ RP’s (realm points) was a second fun way to spec your character, and always gave something to look forward to.

so instead of having gear advantage. you had flat out ability advantage.

yea, that sounds like ‘pure skill’ /sarcasm


Rallic
02.06.2012, 06:47 PM
Really? I loved DAOC crafting. I guess mostly because it actually made useful things that I cared about.

Yes but the swg crafting took that another step in how and what you made.
DAoC has Good crafting but swg was one of the all time best. I can’t think of any that had what it did for crafting.


Vales
02.06.2012, 06:48 PM
I seriously disliked DaoC and no it did not take more skill than other MMOs.
In fact it allowed for more abuse than many others.
Buff bots come to mind.
Eternal CC chains
Interupts did not just push back casts but made them uncastable
Class balance was the worst in history of an MMO

DaoC is probably the most overhyped game after WoW imho.


Rallic
02.06.2012, 06:59 PM
I seriously disliked DaoC and no it did not take more skill than other MMOs.
In fact it allowed for more abuse than many others.
Buff bots come to mind.
Eternal CC chains
Interupts did not just push back casts but made them uncastable
Class balance was the worst in history of an MMO

DaoC is probably the most overhyped game after WoW imho.

Lol you didt play DAoC long it would seam as you know all most nothing about it.
I never once had a bufbot. Still don’t as I still play from time to time..

Cc was and is easy to get around allways was. And took players not braking it.
Interupts was and is one of the best things about casters , mental and eldrich main toons for me.
Balance class vs class I have to give you that one as there is allways a fotm op class. But that’s The same in all games.
For me its not about class vs class its a realm vs realm ie why it don’t mater that archers or any other class are op for a time . The nerf bat rolls from class to class in a never ending game of qq.


CommandoPower
02.06.2012, 07:11 PM
I liked DAOC for what it was.. .but it was by far NOT perfect like so many fanboys claim

We don’t think it’s perfect. Most of us had gripes with it. It’s just simply the BEST PVP game we’ve played.

imbalanced classes… stealth was king in that game… till toa came out

I hated stealthers until I realized that they were almost soley responsible for people grouping up automatically because running around solo meant stealther death. After that? I hated them lol. But I appreciated that they caused the game to be naturally team based with few rambo type players.

Overall stealthers were a phenomenal asset to DAOC simply because they made people automatically group up and fight in groups.

Mythic could just not balance the classes.. .they couldnt do it in DAOC and couldnt do it in Warhammer.

The irony is that I have not seen better balancing even in games with a fraction of the classes, 2 factions, and mirrored classes.

I’m not saying class balance was perfect by any means. Simply no worse than future games with 10 times more variety lol.

what you get in DAOC is what we call ELITISM.. it was really bad in DAOC…in order to make some 8 man teams.. there were requirements…

Which is why I zerg surfed or pugged. Not everyone was elitist. In fact it was mainly certain groups rather than most people. Your gonna say something like blah blah blah would lose to X. My response is going to be I HAD A BLAST :).

its funny some mention it was friendly and helpful etc. that was the case before WOW came out. And the masses started entering into the genre. Attitudes changed from then on. Rudeness and swearing became more accepted.

in early years of AC, EQ, DAOC… people frowned on swearing in the open channel. And poeple would literally tear you a new one if you swore. helping each other was standard for MMOs… nowadays if you ask a question you will be called noob.. ridiculed for not knowing…

I’ll agree with you there, though some games like City of Heros remain mostly friendly.

Yeah most games today require gear as the progression in PVP… however DAOC had its own.. it was REALM RANKS… same damn thing.. a RR10.. now its RR13… can easily beat a RR1… 1v1…

Thing is though, it took A LOT of time to get that high. Like ridiculous amounts of time AND you still didn’t have the same kind of difference you do with fresh 50’s and Battlemasters. They could be alot more easily killed than battlemasters unless they threw all those points into defense, in which case their offense wasn’t being raised near as much.

RA’s were still about choices and tradeoffs, not about an all around "your **** uber now".

a rank 1 just doesnt have the proper tools for PVP like purge which you buy when you rank up…

however, this is Mythics downfall… a new person coming into the game and starting at 50 goes out gets geared up.. thinks cool im competitive to play…

then they wiped fast… they cancel account… this was typical…

That pretty much stopped when they added battlegrounds. You got geared via PVP, you got PVP experience, and you gained Realm Ranks all while leveling in an extremely fun PVP battleground. Still siege based, still open world, still all the fun of DAOC end game PVP, in a small focused package.

maintaining a solid number in daoc’s life was hard for them… they had a hard time getting new subs after you had a LOT of guilds that were "ELITE" feeding on the newcomers into the frontiers…

cant tell you how much RAGE you heard in chat over this. But of course, peoples memories tend to fade as years go by.

Nah it was pretty much TOA. Forcing people to PVE in a primarily PVP game to be competitive at PVP killed it.

oh and one last thing about DAOC.. there was NO OPEN WORLD PVP.. it was all instanced…

you entered into a battleground by loading in.. also went into the frontiers loading in… it was a separate area of the world… your homeland was SAFE… always…

I think your idea of instanced and open world is kind of flawed. Unless an area as big as your homeland with no player cap counts as an instance?

I specifically loved the later attitude of taking and defending keeps of oh midgard is taking a keep… blah who cares… we will get it back when they all log off…

this was another problem… wasnt fun taking empty keeps after awhile… especially if your realm was dominating the other 2… of course this is the worst case scenario…

That’s the funny thing. Nobody understands this in games today. We all cared. You did not want those dirty hibs, albs, mids taking your keep. That was YOUR keep. People called into work to stop relic raids lol. This is what is referred to commonly as REALM PRIDE. You cared about your realm and you honestly wanted to help it for no better reason than because it was your realm.

Me and many others spent many late nights preventing those said keep takes and taking it back if they took ti while we were gone. Even against superior numbers. Because that was our keep dang it and YOU CAN’T HAVE IT!!.

P.S. oh and daoc only has 1 server… yeah its barely running with only the RR13s running around or trying to level up another …

Considering it’s a PVP game and the age of it that’s honestly fairly impressive.

warhammer about the same.. what are they down to? 2 or 3 servers? exactly why mythic was dissolved…

Warhammer got hosed by EA and the catering to the WOW fan base. Straight up. It also only had a fraction of the Mythic staff. Alot of them left to go to other companies and if EA tried to hire me, so would I. I wouldn’t work for them even if they offered me $10 an hour more. I like my soul tyvm.


TehMerc
02.06.2012, 07:14 PM
Far too much nostalgia going on in here for my liking ๐Ÿ˜ก

It wasn’t skill based, it was class based. Stack the right classes or be punished was the name of the game.

No thanks. Do want Siege PvP however, best fun I’ve had in a long time.


ChasteDaley
02.06.2012, 07:23 PM
I remember DAoC fondly. I was a Minstrel and loved the utility I brought to a group.

Speed and …um….what was that ability…it made your whole group move fast and were immune to CC for like 10s.

I just remember that requiring skill to use before the mez or for the other team to fake you into using it so they could CC you after.

It wasn’t a perfect game but I did love that I felt like I could make a good group better.

I feel that a little in SWTOR. I might feel it more with more open PvP.


thaxtl
02.06.2012, 07:30 PM
That ability was called SoS.

Rallic
02.06.2012, 07:36 PM
Far too much nostalgia going on in here for my liking ๐Ÿ˜ก

It wasn’t skill based, it was class based. Stack the right classes or be punished was the name of the game.

No thanks. Do want Siege PvP however, best fun I’ve had in a long time.

Yes and no to this . In 8m vs 8m you needed the right set up , but a pug group of good players beat hands down a bad group that didt know how to play , even if they had the "right" set up.

I pugged a lot but ran in a good premade to. I think it took more skill then any thing we have now.
I did so hate the toa, stopped playing over it. Came back with the classic server , and left after they closed it down.

Now I re-up from time to time just for fun.

I think back to the days of mmg to hmg running and yes it got boring. But there was so much more then that. Keep raids being the most fun I had in DAoC . Shadowbanes city banes being bigger so funner.


Candykissesxoxo
02.06.2012, 08:03 PM
I don’t believe DAoC was any better than any other game out there today. It’s all about the times imo. When it first came out things were different..mmo’s in general were fairly new and giving little to no rewards didn’t matter because it was good enough to just go out and do it and have fun. Times have changed..mmo’s have changed and today it takes a bit more to satisfy the average mmo vet.

DAoC had it’s issues just like any other game out there. More skill? I laugh when I see people saying that. Having gear on an equal lvl and easier to aquire? Maybe easier to aquire but when top geared people face top geared people in any game, if the balance is decent, is skill not measurable? "well what about having fotm classes being OP?..that doesn’t take skill.."

Guess what..In top end arena in wow if a class was OP every f’ing team had one..good players adapted. So when you’re facing mirror team after mirror team with the same comps having equal gear, does that not take skill to get the W?

People crying about gear disadvantage usually means they didn’t make it to the top end. Competing in the top end takes skill in any game. DAoC had advantages that gave people the edge as well. Unfortunetly TOR has no competative pvp or way to rank anyone’s "skill"


Raudd
02.06.2012, 08:14 PM
What made Daoc the best RvR ( realm vs realm) game until now?
Simple:
RvR gave you sense of accomplishment. There were 3 realms, all had they own rvr zone connected to each other. All realms had 2 relic (iirc) kept in there keeps. This relic keeps had relic guardians ( very very hard to beat ) "sent" from the other keeps. If you took those other keeps, the guardians depopped, made it easier to take the relics.

If you controlled other realms relic( which meant take it, got it back to your keeps ) you got 10-20% extra damage for melee/magic in rvr but also pve too.

Relics raids were epic in scale. You needed to take 5-6 keeps to depop the guardians, but of course the defending realm went to defend those keeps, you had huge fight out of it. You used battering rams to break walls, infiltrators climbed up on the walls to gank peoples inside, you had trebutchets (sp) to damage peoples inside. You needed logistic to resupply ammo for those.

After you took those keeps you had to defend them because if the defending realm took ’em back, the guardians at the relic keeps repopped.

Also lets not forget about the third realm, hitting the attackers and the defenders alike.
A relics raid ( because of this "guardian keeps") took 100+ peoples coordinated flawlessly if the defenders came out.

Let me tell you about a raid which made me rvr oriented ( i was a giant pve guy b4):
It took 28 hours. Literally. Groups roaming all over the rvr lands taking/retaking keeps. Joined a group for several hours , went to work. Came home after work, logged on and got the message that the raid still going on , so joined a group to take keeps again for several hours. Went to sleep. Woke up, logged on and saw the raid still going on ( peoples logged off/logged on all the time , kept the raid going )so i joined a group on the final attack on the relic keep. We took the relic and started to head back to our territory. We got hit by a defending group, few groups from the third realm ( they knew if the kill us they will have the relic we worked 28 or so hours for) ,but few of our groups joined us too to bodyguard us. Finally made it back to our keeps , and felt like heroes. Felt like we did something great, something awesome .

It was almost 10 years ago, and i still get goosebumps if i think about it.

PS: Sorry for the rusty English, not my first language


Rallic
02.06.2012, 08:42 PM
I don’t believe DAoC was any better than any other game out there today. It’s all about the times imo. When it first came out things were different..mmo’s in general were fairly new and giving little to no rewards didn’t matter because it was good enough to just go out and do it and have fun. Times have changed..mmo’s have changed and today it takes a bit more to satisfy the average mmo vet.

DAoC had it’s issues just like any other game out there. More skill? I laugh when I see people saying that. Having gear on an equal lvl and easier to aquire? Maybe easier to aquire but when top geared people face top geared people in any game, if the balance is decent, is skill not measurable? "well what about having fotm classes being OP?..that doesn’t take skill.."

Guess what..In top end arena in wow if a class was OP every f’ing team had one..good players adapted. So when you’re facing mirror team after mirror team with the same comps having equal gear, does that not take skill to get the W?

People crying about gear disadvantage usually means they didn’t make it to the top end. Competing in the top end takes skill in any game. DAoC had advantages that gave people the edge as well. Unfortunetly TOR has no competative pvp or way to rank anyone’s "skill"

I lol any time some one tryst to use arena is a PvP sentence. That is in the most lose since of the word PvP but its the *** end of PvP .

Look.arena is set up, theres nothing to be ready for , both teams know what and when, and where..that is not PvP to me. It’s WWF with eping nerds trying to be etuff . Wow PvP and SWTOR PvP are a slap in the face as is to all PvP

Yes it had bugs , iv yet to play any MMO ever with out them. It’s the way the pvp played the levels of classes and skills used . Called targets with 100 people not braking cc all working together.

Fotm classes came later in DAoC as for a long time it took a very long time to level up. not so much now, and like all mmos fotm are there. But in a game that PvP is 8man to 100man raids a few fotm mixed in don’t mater a lot.

DAoC would be a top MMO of it had todays gfx. Hands down they could release the game with nothing more then a xpac for the GUI and gfx and do good.

And for me its not about is DAoC better then SWTOR or not as its apples and Oranges. It’s could SWTOR give us a DAoC sort of world PvP with a 3rd realm using the same classes just another faction like huts or separatists. With space station and world takes.

I think they can and should but that’s me and the PvP/RvR I like.
I can’t stand arenas I think they are a bad joke on pvp. But randomly world PvP with mass server wars I love.

Ps: using my droid to post , to much truble to go back and fix all the words it changes, ,,,, should add that to my Sig lol.


Rallic
02.06.2012, 09:10 PM
I don’t believe DAoC was any better than any other game out there today. It’s all about the times imo. When it first came out things were different..mmo’s in general were fairly new and giving little to no rewards didn’t matter because it was good enough to just go out and do it and have fun. Times have changed..mmo’s have changed and today it takes a bit more to satisfy the average mmo vet.

DAoC had it’s issues just like any other game out there. More skill? I laugh when I see people saying that. Having gear on an equal lvl and easier to aquire? Maybe easier to aquire but when top geared people face top geared people in any game, if the balance is decent, is skill not measurable? "well what about having fotm classes being OP?..that doesn’t take skill.."

Guess what..In top end arena in wow if a class was OP every f’ing team had one..good players adapted. So when you’re facing mirror team after mirror team with the same comps having equal gear, does that not take skill to get the W?

People crying about gear disadvantage usually means they didn’t make it to the top end. Competing in the top end takes skill in any game. DAoC had advantages that gave people the edge as well. Unfortunetly TOR has no competative pvp or way to rank anyone’s "skill"

I lol any time some one tryst to use arena is a PvP sentence. That is in the most lose since of the word PvP but its the *** end of PvP .

Look.arena is set up, theres nothing to be ready for , both teams know what and when, and where..that is not PvP to me. It’s WWF with eping nerds trying to be etuff . Wow PvP and SWTOR PvP are a slap in the face as is to all PvP

Yes it had bugs , iv yet to play any MMO ever with out them. It’s the way the pvp played the levels of classes and skills used . Called targets with 100 people not braking cc all working together.

Fotm classes came later in DAoC as for a long time it took a very long time to level up. not so much now, and like all mmos fotm are there. But in a game that PvP is 8man to 100man raids a few fotm mixed in don’t mater a lot.

DAoC would be a top MMO of it had todays gfx. Hands down they could release the game with nothing more then a xpac for the GUI and gfx and do good.

And for me its not about is DAoC better then SWTOR or not as its apples and Oranges. It’s could SWTOR give us a DAoC sort of world PvP with a 3rd realm using the same classes just another faction like huts or separatists. With space station and world takes.

I think they can and should but that’s me and the PvP/RvR I like.
I can’t stand arenas I think they are a bad joke on pvp. But randomly world PvP with mass server wars I love.


CommandoPower
02.06.2012, 10:47 PM
I lol any time some one tryst to use arena is a PvP sentence. That is in the most lose since of the word PvP but its the *** end of PvP .

Look.arena is set up, theres nothing to be ready for , both teams know what and when, and where..that is not PvP to me. It’s WWF with eping nerds trying to be etuff . Wow PvP and SWTOR PvP are a slap in the face as is to all PvP

Yes it had bugs , iv yet to play any MMO ever with out them. It’s the way the pvp played the levels of classes and skills used . Called targets with 100 people not braking cc all working together.

Fotm classes came later in DAoC as for a long time it took a very long time to level up. not so much now, and like all mmos fotm are there. But in a game that PvP is 8man to 100man raids a few fotm mixed in don’t mater a lot.

DAoC would be a top MMO of it had todays gfx. Hands down they could release the game with nothing more then a xpac for the GUI and gfx and do good.

And for me its not about is DAoC better then SWTOR or not as its apples and Oranges. It’s could SWTOR give us a DAoC sort of world PvP with a 3rd realm using the same classes just another faction like huts or separatists. With space station and world takes.

I think they can and should but that’s me and the PvP/RvR I like.
I can’t stand arenas I think they are a bad joke on pvp. But randomly world PvP with mass server wars I love.

Ps: using my droid to post , to much truble to go back and fix all the words it changes, ,,,, should add that to my Sig lol.

She makes a good point. Arena teams you pretty much have your battle plans and likely opposition down pat. Memorized rotations and what you need to do. Your in a very very controlled setting. It’s a completely different type of gameplay from dynamic open world PVP and I find a less challenging one because you have less variables.

I’ve seen alot of people who did well in arenas and the like FAIL HORRIBLY at open world PVP. Lack of awareness, inability to adapt to changing situations, unable to cope with battle plan falling apart, can’t rely on tried and true methods all the time, etc.

It’s a different world. I was a zerg surger and PUG player. I thrived in chaos. It was my job to try and do the most effective thing for me to do at any given time. This might have been taking out DPS, taking out a healer, or guarding my own people. Maybe I was using my AOE to mass interrupt, maybe I was using my pets to keep one caster interrupted, casting on another, and occasionally casting on a 3rd. I kept in mind to root not just for myself, but for others too. Maybe we had numbers, maybe we were down 2:1, maybe both other realms had us sandwiched and I was trying to lead them into each other.

I had to adjust on the fly no matter what insanity happened. As it so happens I can do raids, I can do arena, I can do alot of things. But nothing beats the ever changing living animal that is open world PVP when it comes to challenging you with new and unexpected situations on a constant basis.

It’s simply a day and night difference, and skill requirement, for open world PVP. Requires more skills AND higher levels of the same skills you use for arena, only without the I do Y then X then Z mentality. Because that’ll just get you killed.


Sorrum
02.06.2012, 10:49 PM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

What are you talking about? Have you ever played the game ?

I swear.. have you ever even seen a video of it ?


LightAvalon
02.06.2012, 11:10 PM
CC that lasts for 30 seconds.

Yeah mez can last a really long time. That’s why your group has to spread out so they are not ALL mezzed. Plus you could spec for purge to get out of it anyway and at least it had diminishing returns

No CC breaks.
Purge. Cleanse etc.

Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Loved this system. Highly encouraged teamwork. If I was a caster and I was getting locked down by someone I had to call it out in my group to get an instant peel.

Too lazy to address the rest.

Anyway as for why I loved DAOC pvp.

Realm points. – Loved going out to fight and continually improve my character. Every time I killed people I’d get points I could spend to get more abilities or skills. Mythic also had a leader boards that showed who had the most amount of realm points, who gained the most that week, who gained the most for your class. It was a lot of fun trying to get the most amount of realm points each week.

Death matters. – I’m sure everyone that raided in WoW can relate to this. How long do you think it takes after a boss wipe to get everyone together again to roll on out? That’s kinda how DAOC pvp is. You have your full group and you spend maybe 5-10 minutes depending on how you’re traveling to the fight location. Then you roam around and find action. If you die you do not re spawn 10 feet away. Nope you go back to your home base and you have to make your way back. Death matters.

PVP is self sustaining. – Once you get your best gear you’re done. You can pvp to your hearts content and will not have to do anymore pve until they expansion you QQ. You even get a ton of money from pvp.

Community/Respect – This is kind of a lost art. Nowadays everyone is "red it’s dead". DAOC had a sense of community where you continued to fight the same people from your server or fought along with the same people. If you saw someone having a 1v1 you’d sit back and let them finish it. If you saw a group vs another group, you’d wait until they were done.

Handling zergs – In DAOC you could actually kill zergs with a full group. This is mostly due to the fact that zergs would cluster on top of each other and be easy AE Mez targets. Also zergs would get less realm points depending on how many players were damaging their target.

-EDIT- Forgot to include why it was skill based.

High team coordination – due to the interrupt system this game relied on a ton of group coordination. Virtually every single had a cast time, none of this insta crap (at least not for awhile). Basically anything that hit you would interrupt your cast and you would be unable to cast again for at least 5s. On the flip side though, if you were free to cast for this duration you could do a ton of damage or heals.

What this generally lead to was pvp groups consisting of a few melee, a few casters, and a few healers. Since you cannot cast if you are interrupted you can kind of imagine how hectic that fight is going to be.

Basically any time 2 groups met everyone would spread out because if you were clumped up, you were a target for a huge AE CC. Healers would prekite and get in the back. Casters usually do the same thing. Tanks would charge in but they’d have to make sure not to get over extended. People had to focus down targets to kill them. You would have casters trying to lock down healers, CC other casters, etc etc.


ugig
02.06.2012, 11:16 PM
So what did the pvp revolve around? Group vs group pvp? How big? What was the goal? Control of resources? Was there a way to rank people? How did you gauge how skilled a player was?

Part of the draw was not knowing how skilled the player was, when you attacked you had a very real danger of getting killed, now you could get a general idea by the title they had, but these titles were different based on the realm where an Albion might be a Gryphon Knight at realm rank 5, a midgard might be an Isen Vakken (cant remember the exact ones)

But the rank doesnt mean they are skilled so you went on reputation, and took chances instead of only picking on those with "less skill" or sure things.

The PvP revolved around group vs group or raid vs raid mostly, but you could get into fights 1v1 all the way up to 100’s vs 100’s or any combination of them.

The main goal was control of relics, each realm had 2 relics, one that boosted your realms melee dmg and one that boosted your realms spell dmg and healing, each relic was like 2% and they stacked, but to gain benefits you had to own both your relics first, for example if Albion captured Midgards Spell relic they would recieve a 2% boost to their spellpower, but if they lost their own relic then they would be back to base spellpower. so the main goal was capture of the enemy relics and defense of your own. For this each realm had various castles and lookout towers that could be sieged and taken or destroyed.

I think some people believe DaoC was a more skill based game because of things like casters not being able to cast while being hit (need some skill to position yourself and be aware) and for melee, their attacks were style chains with reactionary style chains that you needed to be aware of what you were hitting and what was hitting you and know what styles would work best in what situations, in short there was less button mashing facerolling and more calculated use of ones skills.


VandredTOR
02.06.2012, 11:34 PM
Let’s see..

– Casters had to know how to use thier stuns, snares, roots, insta-casts, etc to stand a chance against a melee. If they did know how to do this, they could easily blow melee up.

– Melee play was much more interactive. It was all about reactional attacks, positionals and chains/combos. This is how you got the most damage and if you couldn’t pull them off, you were useless. Some of this has existed in other games, but none as much as DAoC. I’m sure this whole idea is "too hard" for the modern gamer.

– If you were good, you could do some awesome stuff. On my sorcerer, I could take on 4-5 guys my level and win if I did everything exactly right. Timed my CC, used my stuns at the right time as compared to my mezzes, used my roots, maintained my distance, etc.

– My sorcerer sounds OP, you say? Sure, against certain classes…but a stealther could drop me in 2 shots.

– Stealthers destroyed casters and bad players in general…but my mercenary ate them up. (see rock/paper/scissors developing here)?

– If your 8-man was a well oiled machine, you could take out 20-30 zerglings.

Were there issues during the life of the game, of course? Were there OPed classes along the way? You bet (oh hai frost axe).

Most of it got worked out…and the game was just fun.


Daffuzz
02.06.2012, 11:38 PM
I recently resubbed DAoC and remember how fun the pvp is there. Basically there sooooo much to do and sooo many ways to tweak your toon out. You have gear that is for resists, dex/con plus all your gear has abilities on it u can use, there is just soo much you have to watch or you’ll get smoked. None of the recent games that have pvp come even close to the amount of information you have to manage to be good at that game.

ugig
02.06.2012, 11:42 PM
Let’s see..

– Casters had to know how to use thier stuns, snares, roots, insta-casts, etc to stand a chance against a melee. If they did know how to do this, they could easily blow melee up.

– Melee play was much more interactive. It was all about reactional attacks, positionals and chains/combos. This is how you got the most damage and if you couldn’t pull them off, you were useless. Some of this has existed in other games, but none as much as DAoC. I’m sure this whole idea is "too hard" for the modern gamer.

– If you were good, you could do some awesome stuff. On my sorcerer, I could take on 4-5 guys my level and win if I did everything exactly right. Timed my CC, used my stuns at the right time as compared to my mezzes, used my roots, maintained my distance, etc.

– My sorcerer sounds OP, you say? Sure, against certain classes…but a stealther could drop me in 2 shots.

– Stealthers destroyed casters and bad players in general…but my mercenary ate them up. (see rock/paper/scissors developing here)?

– If your 8-man was a well oiled machine, you could take out 20-30 zerglings.

Were there issues during the life of the game, of course? Were there OPed classes along the way? You bet (oh hai frost axe).

Most of it got worked out…and the game was just fun.

After ToA and the advent of stacking dex and casting speed, sorcs became nearly unkillable with anything but stealthers, their lifetap when specced right hit like a truck and the cast speed increases plus dex meant it was damn near instant, and for some reason sorcs had a higher hit point pool than normal casters.


cokn
02.06.2012, 11:44 PM
All I hear is "more time played = some sort of advantage" which is pretty much the same in any mmo. So it wasn’t gear that gave you an advantage in DAoC, it was realm rank? What is the difference?

While I will admit, there are a fair amount of Rose Colored glasses being worn, the time investment vs rewards for DAoC were great. At RR1, you could compete but would most likely want to group to achieve your kills. At RR5 you were pretty much as good as you were gonna get as you then had the full abilities of your class. After that, it was all gravy but nothing that gave you a huge advantage.

What I liked most about DAoC (50 Inf, 50 Scout, 50 Necro, 50 Cleric, 40 Buff Bot) was as people have mentioned, when you stepped into RvR with your fully crafted MC set, Spellcrafted and Alchemied up, you knew that what determined the winner was the user behind the keyboard. I would spend hours at the milegate in the afore mentioned stealther wars where we would have Shadowblades, Nightshades, Infs, Hunters, Scouts and Minstrels all vying for control and kills. When it came time to assault a keep, I would sneak my inf and climb the walls to kill the casters nuking our assault party, then jump off and hide to do it again. You REALLY got a feel for you class and your class played as it should have.

I will temper this with what I did not like and what I think ultimately lead to its downfall. PvE was not the best. They had somewhat of an EQ mentality especially with TOA which I attribute the mass decline of the game to. They added elements that had no reason to be in the game. Also, with the advent of WoW, DAoC did not update their control scheme, UI, player movement, etc. This is a painful experience for people not familiar with the game. At its height, DAoC had roughly 250k – 300k Subs worldwide. This is before WoW and the MMO revolution so, those were decent numbers. I have yet to see a game bring what DAoC had to PVP, they just don’t make those games anymore. Any aspiring game devs out there, grab a shoestring budget and remake DAoC with a better control scheme and updated PVE (adjust crafting to so it isn’t such a slog but keep the core philosophy behind DAoC’s crafting) and I promise people will play.


Zintair
02.06.2012, 11:59 PM
Lotta people keep repeating the same thing so I’ll throw some new tidbits out there.

1) 3 realms

The only other game I’ve played that was MMO and PvP based that had 3 opposing factions was Planetside. This system allows DAOC to have semi-balanced servers where one realm might be the dominant one but the other two could at times gang up and take them down. A VERY effective system and if implemented correctly could solve server balance issues (at least in theory/ my opinion)

2) Armor dyes

Yeah it sounds cheesy but damn 8 mans and guilds looked ****** at times with dyed armors.

3) Realm pride

I know some people didn;t have any but many in the game did and when it came to defending your realms keeps lots of people answered the call especially if it was controlled by one of the better guilds on the server. Faction pride goes a long way to retaining subscriptions and adding flavor to a stale genre currently floundering as it tries to figure out where it’s headed.

4) Keeps and Siege design

As a Shadowblade I was able to stealth up walls and attacks casters while they harrassed my realm. If I was talented enough I could stealth up the wall, 2 shot a caster and then use Vanish and Safe Fall without so much as attracting the attention of defenders.

Also Guards and Keep Lords were fun too, and the ability to upgrade them and improve their gear, the keeps walls and doors, the entirety of repairing the doors and crafting siege engines, it was so war-like and I’ve never experienced anything like it.

5) Stealther Wars

I was on Guinevere and I can’t tell you how many times I would roll around with a group of 7 other stealthers and we would encounter an Alb group of Infiltrators and Scouts and just see everyone popping out of stealth trying to get openers off was just so epic. usually only a few made it out alive but the fights were just epic as poisons were going everywhere and you see roll animations as classes got their PA/CD chain off haha epic.

Finale – It took great skill to dominate as an 8 man in DAOC but you could survive as you learned the ropes. Life was difficult for some factions of some realms but if you made friends and had allies you usually were ok.

The thing I enjoyed most about the game was it was released before all the ****tard WOWheads ruined the MMO community forever. Before where a community in an MMO was for the most part respectful and helpful is now a joke.

Gone are the days of this and I for one would rather MMOs stayed in the shadows of the background of the gaming world where we all could enjoy them in peace. But no… business and $$$$ has forever polluted and corrupted the industry like everything else in this world.

And people can hate on Mythic all they want. But they have created two MMOs that allowed the players to have some of the best times of their MMO gaming careers. Sure it was mostly player and community driven but in the end that was their intention.

Did they lack the finer aspects of balance? Yes
Did they have a tendency to turn a nerfbat into a sledgehammer? Yes

Still,

if DAOC 2 came out, not only would I play but would consider even paying up to 20-25$ a month for it. It was THAT much fun.


HileyQuiggley
02.07.2012, 12:06 AM
First off I played DAoC for 10 years. Ive taken brief leaves for other games and always went back. I have 9 accounts, Ive sold another 10 or so and I have RR’s all the way up until 11. I have every class 50 and alot of multiples. So I know the game fairly well.

The reason it is a skilled game is this. The classes are not mirrored, so out of all those classes there are many different setups. Some fights are situational, tower defense, keep defense.

People that complain about the CC or caster interupts have either 1. Not played the game or 2. Where very poor at it. Also yes Radar was used by some of the groups/people around but that wasnt an I win ability. Just because you get mezz off first means absolutely nothing.

Caster interupts, they do the most damage, they have CC, they have abilitys to help keep them at range from aggro. They are wearing cloth and wielding a stick you think your going to stand toe to toe with a dude with swords and chainmail?

CC, yes if you dont have stoicism (base 25% reduc), purge breaks all forms of CC, Determination can get up to 55% reduc with realm abilities. Immune timers are fairly long, you cant just mezz and mezz again right away. Almost everyone has purge also. Purge is the single most important RA accross all classes. Charge is also another RA that alows increased speed and immunity from CC for a short duration.

Template building was my favorite part of the game. Your character was unique, you figured out what PvE armor you needed with different procs on the armor or use abilities and then you filled the holes with crafted gear. You could have 75 base to your primary stats that you use and a extra stat cap of 26 totaling 101, 200 hp with another 200 cap so 400. Also your weaponskill +11 or spell lines.

You can solo, group, or zerg. There are battlegrounds also with keep sieges and tower captures. No time limit only a level and RA cap. New Frontiers is a huge open area, almost to big with an also huge water area. You had to take boats to the other realms territory or if you had a keep captured you could port there. Bridges going over waterways that always had stealth around so you new if you where solo to be carefull.

Also the opening of Darkness Falls is a great experience. Whoever has the most Towers/Keeps has control of DF. A PvE area but also a PvP area until the previous owners where killed out.

You actually got a reward for killing people not gear. That was for PvE and crafters, the realm ability system is the best ive seen. Realm ability doesnt make one person better all the time. When I first took my savage out in RvR I wanted to only solo on him. I hit rr5 in no time taking on multiples at very low RR and I didnt even have purge. Ive lost my fair share of fights also. Im not the best at any class, never spent to much time on a single one.

You have reactionary styles, if you block or parry or evade an attack. You have styles you can use that benefit you. Either a stun or Bleed effect or extra dps. When you solo you have to time things just right. If you stun the other person you should know when his immunity will be back up. Some fights are over very quick, some can last a very long time. Just ask someone who has been a Pally vs Warden or Pally vs Valk or either way you put those.

You only needed a buffbot if you where solo or you didnt have any friends. Now days there are buff merchants who although not as good as a bot, they are almost as good and you will get by just fine.

Another thing on the templates, you would set them up how you play. If you rely on defence and wearing an oponent down you templated heal procs and +shield parry etc. If offense you wanted some good use abilities, proc weapons from ML10 and other weapons you could swap in for different procs. So many types of ways you could figure something up.

If you never played the game you seriously missed out on one of the greatest games that might ever come out. Its not to late to give it a try either, they have added new things and made gear even easier to come by.

When I first started playing if you had 1 plat you where rich beyond belief. Now I have about 3 mithril, which is not a real currency its 3000 plat. I just feel like ive beat the game, not possible but ive done everything it seems, had the crafters, the classes, the fights, all server types. My time to move on. I enjoy SWTOR and hope it gets better, all games have there flaws and DAoC had its fair share. It is a very polished game after 10 years though as it should be.

If you read all this cudos. Its a skill game, a random dude cant just stroll up and own because he has the best gear.


KilllerRock
02.07.2012, 12:07 AM
I didn’t play DAoC as much as my friends did. But that was because the PvE blew chunks, and i was young and leveling was so slow and painfully boring for an ADD teen.

But the PvP was amazing. Zerg vs Zerg in that game just seemed epic, these 50 vs 50 battles of spells going off and melee charging in, and CC/AoE that can hit an infinite amount of targets if they are dumb enough to stand that clustered togeather (yes, you wanted to spread out so 1 ground AoE spell didn’t hit everyone).

Then you had 8 mans kiting or bombing zergs because again, zergs were lazy and put 1 guy on auto follow so everyone was clustered ontop of eachother and allowed themselves to be hit by 3 casters CC or AoE dmg spells and wipe 50 people. Which i loved about the game that a smaller force could wipe a force 3-4x bigger if they played well together and the zerg did not.

The 8vs8 fights were intense, they could be fast matches that ended in 40 seconds or they could last 10 minutes. And ya casters were interupted a **** ton, but casters hit like a truck, if you didn’t make sure to shut certain casters down they would demolish a team if they were allowed to free cast. And melee had directional attacks and chains. Attacks that could only be used from the side or the back or after a block or dodge, attacks that could only be used as a sequel to a previous attack, 3-4 chain attacks.

On top of that, you had solo players running around looking for 1v1 or 2v2 and most the community had what they considered "honor" in that game. That even though an 8 man could simply kill the solo player to get realm points to help lvl up, they usually past them up and let them roam looking for a 1v1 as it was considered "dishonorable" to gank a solo player with your 8 man.

It also had castle sieges and a resource called relics that gave faction wide buffs if you controlled them. It required a huge assault force usually to take these so if you controlled one, you knew you would probably have it for a while and you would try to defend those with your life if you were online when a enemy faction would try to take it from you.

And ya, some classes did just counter other classes. But it made teamwork all that more important. The good 8 mans were well known because they hardly ever died except to the other good 8 mans. And you couldnt just mindlessly zerg good players as with good CC and kiting they might still wipe your group of 40.

Hell im pretty sure you can youtube a video of an 8 man wiping a 100 man zerg because they funneled them up into a tower and nuked the sh*t out of them as they came inside.


Whiteswag
02.07.2012, 12:07 AM
Having played DaoC and being on the best guild in our server and being #1 across all servers for my class (infiltrator) for the time I played (release – TOA), I can tell you exactly what went wrong and right with daoc.

DaoC was by far the best PvP game Ive played yet, and I will tell you why.

THE GOOD

1. Realm pride – Everyone no matter who you were in that game had a sense of pride in the realm. If your realm got attacked, no matter what you were doing you hauled *** to defend it. Lots was at stake. Being attacked and losing your melee and/or magic relics meant your WHOLE realm did less damage and the enemy who took it and capped it in their own fortress gained that damage. Mind you, this wasnt as a walk in the park. It was basically unheard of to take a relic for the first few months of the games release, and even then oh my lord was it hard. You had to capture a number of keeps, kill defenders along the way, break down the walls to their fortress and take the relic, THEN you had to carry it (like flag) a long way away to your portal. From there you then had to run it all the way to your fortress in the middle of fricken nowhere to cap it. All along the way fighting for your life, defending, having gank groups peel off you, and then in some cases having the OTHER realm come in and try to wipe everyone and take the prize for themselves. It was EPIC. People would wake up at 2am in a coordinated realm login to form the raid party to invade the enemy lands and take their relics. Everyone would log on and immediately type /anon so they wouldnt show up on the /who (enemies had spies and would check in on people to see where the forces were)

2. Crafters – these people were very important. Whoever was Legendary Grandmaster was known to everyone on the server. This was an achievement and they made 100% quality items. Quality affected the damage your weapon did, the closer to 100% the closer to the true weapon damage. There were 90000 crafters, there was one maybe two, and they were your best friend.

3. Community – EVERYONE knew everyone. The server was large enough to have people all over the world at all times, and yet small enough to remember everyone, what guild they were in, etc. I myself started off as a complete noobie in a large "family" guild and then worked my way up to one of those "elitist" guilds. Deathspam was awesome, when you killed someone the whole zone was alterted that you had just done so. People feared certain people and either refused to head out solo or grouped up en masse to survive. We also all used IRC at the time so it was awesome having the whole server on talking smack and/or congratulating eachother over pvp wins etc.

3. Skill – In my opinion the highest skill cap game released yet. Casters and healers were probably the best players I’ve ever seen and that game built and bred some of the best players in current MMO’s. Casters and Healers could not cast through damage and face tank people in this game. This was awesome, it encouraged positioning, situational awareness, kiting, prioritizing targets and abilities etc. Ever since WoW and even before then, games decided to go extremely casual and make it so you can cast in peoples faces with only a little delay in casting (which in most cases is removed via talents).

4. Items – All the best gear was crafted and thus everyone at end game was equal. At L50 (if you did your whole class quest) you got a full set of 100% quality armor which was really cool and unique looking. This never even got close to capping you on stats but it was a good start. Crafted gear + enchanting made everyone perfectly equal with their respective max stats.

5. Diminishing returns – Awesome CC implementation after the poorly designed release CC. Diminishing returns forced players to play smart (which is a good thing). If you stunned, slept, rooted someone etc they could not be controlled with that same spell again for a full minute. It really made players vigilant and conscious about when to do things and when to hold off because they would do more harm than good. Now a days people just throw cc at the nearest tab target and who cares, it means nothing.

6. Realm Abilities – Very fun and always left you wanting more. This was the quintessential min/max for your character. You wanted that extra +stats, you wanted to save for that expensive 10 point realm ability even if it did have a 30min cooldown lol. Some abilities were necessary, others were useful, and some were just fluff.

7. Ranking – I would love looking at the camelotherald website all the time to see where I stood vs everyone else pvping, where I stood in the assassin category, solo category and where our guild was. It was a small way of getting recognized by everyone on your server.

8. Character balance – Honestly, SWTOR has better balance but DaoC wasn’t too far off. Sure Hibernian casters could stun and nuke you down in a few seconds but hey, that’s life, one interrupt and they were yours. I honestly never said to myself, OMG that’s so fricken overpowered, or raged as hard as I do in Star Wars.

9. Named Mobs – ALL named mobs dropped something, and that was awesome. Anytime I saw a named mob I went and I had to kill it. Anyome remember the sword from Tusker the named pig in the Yarley Farm? He dropped a ****** sword that was the FIRST weapon with a particle effect in DaoC.

THE BAD

1. Radar – due to large map sizes and large zergs some of the gank groups uses radar programs to find fights and avoid the zergs. Not a huge issue to anyone who was mildly competent since you were panning 24/7 in that game so you didnt get flanked.

2. CC – for the first bit of the games PvP life there was no crowd control breaks, and no diminishing returns. If you landed a sleep on someone, good game, that guy was sleeping for a full minute. This was remedied fairly quickly and really turned the game around.

3. Population Imbalance – One strong realm was able to bully, zerg and camp the other side with relative immunity. Only a joined effort between the two enemy realms vs the big dog or a midnight raid to cripple the stronger force would tip the scales.

4. Emain – Poor Hibernians, they had the best terrain and it was easy on the eyes too. This made the best PvP open area but it left the poor Hibernians always defending their lands.

5. Stealth zergs – Omg, when people saw how good assassins were, they blew up and became flavor of the month. I was one of 3 Assassins on the whole server, but once people saw the power and sheer carnage of a well played assassin, people began to form whole groups of them in pvp and lie in wait to jump on helpless stragglers trying to join the fight or in some cases jump full groups.

6. Archers – Archers would one shot casters and own tanks too when the game released. This was remedied by giving casters bladeturn (made the first arrow get absorbed), gave shield tanks engage (they would face you and put up their shield and block all arrows, but they couldnt attack) they increased the chance to fumble and drop your arrow, they increased the chance to pop of out stealth when you were trying to fire and they made them visibile to almost all assassins. Poor archers, Mythic really laid the smack down hard, but good archers still prevailed.

7. TOA – complete utter disaster. No clue why decided to add a PvE expansion to a PvP game. It completely forced people that PvP to PvE just to remain on par. Items were so powerful and had insane "on use" effects that single handedly tipped the scales in your favor. The PvP got angry, joined in on the PvE fail, got the items, had to then grind their life away to level up the items and then go back to pvp. By then, the game lost a lot of subscribers and began its long and slow decline into the annals of history.

Daoc R.I.P "never forget"


Warlyx
02.07.2012, 12:09 AM
i enjoyed how archers worked in DaoC was original and refreshing ๐Ÿ˜€

u could spam fast but low dmg arrows or u could draw your bow (i still miss that sound! )

lots of arrows to choose from:

piercing , blunt , slashing ^^

opening with a critical shot >>>——> ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

best archery system ever ^^

archers go nerfed hard ๐Ÿ™ , but oh well , they changed archery later too adding lot of skills :S


Mallorik
02.07.2012, 12:19 AM
Daoc didnt have pvp gear, and all the end game gear you wanted for pvp was made by crafters with very few exceptions.

KilllerRock
02.07.2012, 12:43 AM
so instead of having gear advantage. you had flat out ability advantage.

yea, that sounds like ‘pure skill’ /sarcasm

it was minor ability advantage, its like a skill advantage in the 1-49 bracket between a level 30 and a level 45. Ya you’re missing out on a few abilities, but i feel at less of a disadvantage when i hit just as hard but am missing a skill or two, than when its a gear disadvantage and i can use all the same abilities but they just have higher dmg reduction and higher damage.


KilllerRock
02.07.2012, 12:45 AM
Also, why did Mythic instead of making Warhammer not just make DAoC 2? I seriously would purchase for $60 a updated version of the same original DAoC. Just update the graphics, make the PvE a little more enjoyable, and keep the classes/abilties/CC/AoE all the same and i would buy it.

FichutheDude
02.07.2012, 01:03 AM
A good templates at the beginning of TOA and reaching ML10 was not a ‘walk in the park’.
Plus you had to find a spellcrafter and alchimist. It’s was expensive and most of them were doing only their guild or were too busy.

So you had to ask in the forum and their price would be awesome. Or you had your own which mean you were far from being a new player anyway.

Reaching GM level was A PAIN IN THE BUTT. So I never did it myself .. I simply used my guild mates crafter ๐Ÿ˜€

MP armor did not come cheap either . You also would lose extra imbue points if you opted for 99%

Farming scroll ( You needed a group or a buffbot) with super rare drop rates and getting credit for your artifact was not pleasant and very long. I have fond memory of ppl camping spot for day so they could get that frigging arty credit or drop. DaOc was everything but not a casual game and you needed a group.

RvR had plenty of imbalances . Also a rr5 gank group pre made could beat a rr10 pug grp .. Sure. Really? Maybe if all their RA were down. Some class had active RA and most of the time it what made the difference between equally skilled group. Some RA were overpowered like MoC . Some class had their moment also . Like Warlock , Savage , Bonedancer, Cleric (yes yes CLERIC) , Sorcerer , Berserker and Enchanter!!

DaOC was not without problem. The open world RVR was the best thing about this game.

Plus leveling to 50 … Yes .. .Day and day camping the same area. It’s was WORK. Took me 18 day the first time … My XP bar keep moving a little .. .each hours after 100000 pull.


CicadaDDR
02.07.2012, 01:05 AM
UO PvP, imo.

Vylettes
03.12.2012, 05:56 PM
Plus leveling to 50 … Yes .. .Day and day camping the same area. It’s was WORK. Took me 18 day the first time … My XP bar keep moving a little .. .each hours after 100000 pull.

18 days? took me 30 for my first 50. But that is also what made the community so consistant. Since it took ages to make a level 50, people didnt have like 10 different level 50s or 20 different characters. Was important to make the one have a good reputation and less people to remember.


Aleksiel
03.12.2012, 06:04 PM
it isn’t.

CC that lasts for 30 seconds.
No CC breaks.
Any hit interrupts spell casting so you cant cast any spell if you are getting hit.
Permanent stun.
Archers used to kill casters in one hit until they introduced bladeturn. Now it requires them 2-3 hits.

Maphack is a must. If your group doesn’t have maphack, they can’t roam open pvp since 1 group mez = dead party.

THIS. Was good for it’s day but ridiculous now. RVR was the only good part. Getting one shot by an archers Long Draw was not fun. As far as gear goes, you dungeon crawled all day to get the best get to destroy people with. One of the reasons why a pvp stat was implemented in WoW. Don’t ever let any of these so called "true pvpers" tell you that the early games weren’t gear dependent, or that pvp was for the "thrill of killing others". If you didn’t have max level PvE gear you were getting destroyed, bottom line


Briljin
03.12.2012, 06:14 PM
Not sure I would call it more skill based, they had their share of OP classes and abilities just like any MMO. But their faction based PvP system blows away anything BW has right now.

Dego_Locc
03.12.2012, 06:26 PM
I know it must be shocking to some people that people actually rvr’d because it was enjoyable and not a grind for gear.

No, they grinded for "realm rank", which gave bonus to skills/stats at times.

Same thing as gear progression.
So a RR10 would pwn a RR 1 easily.

Without motivation or progression, or the cause to fight for relics, there wouldn’t have been a ton of ppl doing it "just for the fun of it."


Dharnyle
03.12.2012, 06:51 PM
Said it before and I’ll say it again.

DAoC was a RvR game. Not a PvP game.

Key differences were things like 3 factions. Biggest difference as it meant it wasn’t us vs. them but us vs. them and them.

Frontiers areas were 24/7. There were no safe zones or towns or bases in the Frontiers. It meant there could be small scale skirmishes or large relic raids… at any time whatsoever.

Up until "New Frontiers" the game didn’t play for the player. You couldn’t click on a map and see where the action was, you had to get out there and find the enemy. This gave rise to the players who were scouts. Constantly wandering the frontiers looking for trouble. It took time. A LOT of time and dedication. It took skill to be a solo scout moving at stealth and being able to track a enemy raid moving at speed, knowing where they were going and able to alert your realm for a possible CTA.

Frontier fighting wasn’t JUST about killing other players. Doing well in the frontiers meant a boon for your realm. Control your relics and the enemy relics, receive a stat boost to either damage or spells, depending on which relics you controlled. Control a majority of the frontier keeps and gain access to Darkness Falls dungeon.

But aside from that, the smart realms waged economic warfare on the other realms to cripple them. Keep doors didn’t respawn or repair themselves. The players had to expend time and currency to repair and upgrade doors, so you literally COULD raid a enemy realm, knock down keep doors but not take the keeps and force them to repair and upgrade doors themselves. Do it often enough and drain a realms players of the money needed to be successful in the Frontiers.

Relic Raids were epic excercises in teamwork. Again. RvR. Everyone was involved and the truely epic relic raids would start weeks before the actual raid. Even on the actual raid day the stealthers and scouts would be out combing the frontier looking for weak points and enemy movements hours and hours and hours before the raid even gathered.

But all that was before New Frontiers expansion when they changed everything.

I loved the old way in that game and was one of those crazy people who spent hours upon hours upon hours scouting the frontiers, ever vigilant.

But those days are long gone. No one present day is willing to put forth the time to do that anymore.

Lastly, I really am not looking at DAoC through rose colored glasses. It had some horrible flaws and some really FUBAR systems. But for all the flaws and *** moments, the mechanics of RvR was and is superior to PvP.

You really can’t compare the two.


Yeke
03.12.2012, 06:57 PM
Without motivation or progression, or the cause to fight for relics, there wouldn’t have been a ton of ppl doing it "just for the fun of it."

Not sure where you played but you didn’t get any rewards for repairing a relic keep door for hours on end nor running wood for the people repairing and yet they did it willingly also iirc there wasn’t realm abilities at release. (could be wrong but thats how i recall it)


Keldaur
03.12.2012, 06:59 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?

It wasn’t. People saying otherwise are just nostalgic.

The good thing was everybody could get crafted gear and go pvp, and the RvR was quite good, but the PvP had insane amounts of overpowereds CC’s.


kweassa
03.12.2012, 07:04 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?

It wasn’t really ‘skill based’, but more like "hardcore team coordination."

The limits between each class was so definate, and CCs were so powerful, as well as heals and debuffs, that each different class with distinct/absolute limitations had to perform their 100% as a team in order to win. A slight miss in team play used to cause catastrophic wipe outs.

Compared to that, in a relative sense, the classes we have in SWTOR, or any other contemporary MMOGs, is basically a lot more "omnipotent". Hence, the difficulty of the gruelling team-coordination went down a lot, and a lot more can be achieved as an individual.


Corran
03.12.2012, 07:04 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?

it was not. people have rose colored glasses on.

they forget the zerg trains, the long distance aoe mezz, the sos. they forget how that game actually played. they forget bonedancers and necros solo’ng full groups of their opponents for the nearly 8 months before aoe healing with your buffbot from the pk was fixed.

it was not more skill based, but it required more cooperation. it also required buffbots.


kweassa
03.12.2012, 07:06 PM
it was not. people have rose colored glasses on.

they forget the zerg trains, the long distance aoe mezz, the sos. they forget how that game actually played. they forget bonedancers and necros solo’ng full groups of their opponents for the nearly 8 months before aoe healing with your buffbot from the pk was fixed.

it was not more skill based, but it required more cooperation. it also required buffbots.

^^^ This too.

DAOC was fun while it lasted, but it definately wasn’t all that peachy pinky PvP heaven people like to describe as. Same goes for GW as well.

People simply find excuses in wherever place they look at.


Corran
03.12.2012, 07:07 PM
Not sure where you played but you didn’t get any rewards for repairing a relic keep door for hours on end nor running wood for the people repairing and yet they did it willingly also iirc there wasn’t realm abilities at release. (could be wrong but thats how i recall it)

because owning the keeps and relics increased your overall power in pvp and pve and the realm abilities were in very quickly. remember we’re talking about a game that released in 2001 – a time when you could not solo your way to 50 on most of the classes unless you already had a leel 50 buffbot following you around. there was no instancing. xp’ng was done mostly as a group

this lead to a feeling of community, something the genre has lost in recent years.


Dego_Locc
03.12.2012, 07:25 PM
because owning the keeps and relics increased your overall power in pvp and pve and the realm abilities were in very quickly. remember we’re talking about a game that released in 2001 – a time when you could not solo your way to 50 on most of the classes unless you already had a leel 50 buffbot following you around. there was no instancing. xp’ng was done mostly as a group

this lead to a feeling of community, something the genre has lost in recent years.
Exactly.


ProfessorWalsh
03.12.2012, 07:35 PM
I’m just curious, I never played the game but i’ve seen probably 40 threads about how skill based it was over the past few weeks.

For the most part, they just talk about the gear making it more skillfull :confused: or that classes were hard countered by other classes :confused:

Neither of those things sound particularly "skillfull"… so are there any other reasons why so many people talk about how skill based it was?

DAoC was more skill based due to the dynamic nature of DAoC classes.

Ahem.

Playing a light tank (aka melee DPS) in DAoC was difficult. You had to take advantage of two major mechanics:

Positioning based abilities and Reactionary based abilities.

Positioning based abilities were abilities that could only be done from a certain location. Front, Back, or Side. A sub-category of this were abilities that could only be used right after doing previous abilities.

Reactionary based abilities were abilities that could only be used right after your character did a specific action before the circumstances were nullified.

So, you couldn’t learn a rotation, because you needed specific things to make it happen.

For example:

As a Blademaster the highest damage "chain" in the game was "Twin Star, Super Nova, and Solar Flare"

Which was a positional reactionary style.

You had to hit them from the side for Twin Star to go off, you could only do a Super Nova after a Twin Star, and you could only do a Solar Flare after a Solar Flare.

Then there was another one that was based off of a parry, and the catch was if you parried a shot, but then the opponent swung again before you could use your maneuver and you didn’t parry it would lose your window to use it. It was like, Scorpion Sting, Wasp Strike, and … I forget the last one.

I remember that was one of my big combos.

Wait for a parry, then fire off that combo, the last hit of the parry reactionary stunned the target for 2 seconds which gave me time to strafe around to the side and launch into the big finale.

It was less about running around and more about situational awareness and skill use control.


StrykerOne
03.12.2012, 07:47 PM
DAoC had (has, rather… it’s still going) some odd issues but the melee was certainly more skill-based than most games. You had attack chains (attacks that required using another specific attack first), lots of positional and reactive attacks, and the ability to queue two attacks so that if the conditions for the first one were met (like a reactive that you can only use after a parry) it would fire, otherwise your second attack would go off. That made the melee a lot more dynamic than just popping off whatever attack finishes its cooldown and maybe one reactive.

I’m not sure the PvP in general was more skill based though… the casters were either godlike (if not getting hit) or worthless (if being hit) since casting was interrupted by any damage at all and some debuffs. Also the CC was insane… fights generally were decided in the opening couple of seconds based on which team got their AoE mezz off first or were decided by which team had more of the long cooldown (5-15 minute) abilities that actually let you break CC / ignore interrupts ready. The main reason I liked it wasn’t the skill factor but rather the fact that it used to have large scale PvP, on the order of 200+ players per side at times, and had keeps and towers that guilds could siege, capture, and defend. Army vs army is more interesting to me than group vs group… if I want that I play a shooter.



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